Strength training to aid cycling

daniel_b

Afternoon all,

I've been struggling to boost my FTP for a few months, so want to try something that seemed to work quite well or me last year - but just wanted to find out what others on here who carry out strength training do, and what results they have seen.

I don't want to debate the 'is strength training worth it' angle, it's something I want to try, and if it doesn't yield any benefit it will be discarded.

With a young family and full time job, time for training is relatively sparse.

I normally ride for about 3.5-4 hours a week, but what I started a couple of weeks ago, is to reduce the length of my turbo training sessions from 60 to 30 minutes, and also up the intensity, so most are 0.90 - 0.94 - pretty hard but short efforts.

I'm using the 30 minutes saved to come inside, and then carry out two very simple free weight exercises.
Squats and deadlifts with a barbell.

I did this last year when lockdown started actually, and probably went for it a bit too much & had too many different exercises (Hence this time sticking to 2 only), and tried to do it too often, and lost enthusiasm for it.

So this time I'm trying to keep it to 3 or 4 times a week maximum.

I also now have a massage gun, and using that for 15 minutes after both sessions is making a massive difference to how my muscles felt last year.

Currently I am lifting fairly light weights, and around 100 reps, in sets of between 12 & 15.
I'm planning to inch this up by 1-2kg per week for the next few weeks, and keep the volume the same, but am wondering if it might be more beneficial to increase the weight by 50% and drop the volume, potentially by 50%, or to maybe alternate, and have 2 per week as I am doing now, and 2 at the increased weight with reduced reps.

Last year I was just doing high reps & low weight, and I was putting in my best times out on the road & power figures, although this did not translate into a new highest FTP - actual real world performance seemed to be the best it had been since Ride London 2019.

I'm not a sprinter in anyway, and have seen articles that suggest really heavy weights are best for sprinters, and less weight is good for more endurance, which is probably me to be honest, but am still thinking if mixing it up might yield some extra benefits.

Be interested to hear what you guys and gals have found.

Thanks

Dan

ugo.santalucia

Why would doing squats improve your FTP?
It's a bit like saying, fitting wider tyres will prove your engine power...
Look at the quad size of Bernal with a high FTP and then look at Chris Hoy's quads, he has a low FTP... then think again...

Your FTP is going to be limited, by and large, by how much oxygen you can shift around per unit of time and therefore having larger quads or better abs is not going to make an iota of difference... it's pedalling, not lifting weights that is going to push up your FTP

webboo

Using weights to develop power or strength you need to be doing low reps and go heavy. This is regardless of what sport you are doing plus you should do some other exercises to get the benefit of weight training. However you would probably benefit from riding more as 3 to 4 hours is one ride for most people.

super_davo

I watched "The Truth about getting fit at Home" on Iplayer the other day and it had a segment on strength training. Suggestion was it can bring a whole host of fitness benefits, particularly as you get older. It convinced me enough that it's something worth looking at, even as a cyclist who doesn't want to be carrying lots of muscle.

The program conclusion was it didn't make a huge amount of difference if you did high weights low reps or low weights / high, as long as you trained to failure (you can't lift any more). Historically body builders did high weights / low reps to build muscle mass and low / high to gain definition; but I suspect diet and calorie surplus / deficit has a much greater effect.

But it's not going to boost your FTP. Indeed it could be quite detrimental if your legs are shot from weight training so you're unable to do the stuff that will e.g. over / unders, VO2 max sessions etc.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

I could see some weight training maybe being of benefit to strengthen your core muscles, iirc like me you suffer from a weak lower back history that has generally been better in recent years, not that I've tried this myself.

But improving your FTP, can't see that myself, besides if you get to the point where pain from your back causes so much discomfort that your have to lower power output.

Be wary of making all your sessions ~30mins, even if most of these are threshold efforts, I went down this route a few winters back and while my 20-30min power improved, when spring arrived my endurance stamina was shot!

Mix up your sessions, I been crudely following https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/back-to-fitness since November and unlike many longer Zwift workouts, they tend to focus better on one interval type per workout after the short warmups. Mixed in with some short races/TTs and the odd longer duration z2 ride, it's helped me turn the corner after a dire 2020 brought on by Covid.

brundonbianchi

Look into 4 DP ( 4 does more ) . It’s a bit more of a rounded approach to your stats, than just FTP. If you have enough strength to stand on each leg in turn, and hop, without collapsing in a heap ( presuming you have both legs, and can stand on them ) you have sufficient leg ‘strength’ for cycling. Carefully targeted strength training, concentrating mostly on core, glutes, and Quads, is useful, but be mindful of bulking in the process, as too much bulk will be wasted effort, it’s a balancing act. That said, there’s no substitute for miles on the bike. It matters little if you do loads of strength training, without sufficient mileage on the bike, as with cycling, it’s as much about how particular muscles are used, as it is strength of those muscles.

iso2000

See this video on the science behind the advantages of lifting in the off season.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=V88wwTCs680

As Webboo says you should be lifting heavy weights at low reps (4 - 10). Squats and deadlifts will give you the most gains in leg strength.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Dan - as others have said I am still yet to see any evidence showing how strength/weight training can improve FTP or aerobic endurance in general. I do think there is something to be said for having good core strength which can reduce injury risk, improve your position/stability on the bike and perhaps lead to improved pedalling technique and efficiency. Whilst that won't improve FTP it still adds something to your overall ability to perform well on a bike (you could possibly make a logical argument that better core strength and pedalling efficiency might make you a little faster for the same power levels).

The thing that always interests me, is why are you looking to improve FTP? Is it just to get your numbers up a bit for personal interest (nothing wrong with that if so), or do you have other plans? I only ask, as if the desired increase to FTP is with a view to make improvements elsewhere, then there are other training options you could explore within the amount of time you have available to you per week.

brundonbianchi

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Dan - as others have said I am still yet to see any evidence showing how strength/weight training can improve FTP or aerobic endurance in general. I do think there is something to be said for having good core strength which can reduce injury risk, improve your position/stability on the bike and perhaps lead to improved pedalling technique and efficiency. Whilst that won't improve FTP it still adds something to your overall ability to perform well on a bike (you could possibly make a logical argument that better core strength and pedalling efficiency might make you a little faster for the same power levels).

The thing that always interests me, is why are you looking to improve FTP? Is it just to get your numbers up a bit for personal interest (nothing wrong with that if so), or do you have other plans? I only ask, as if the desired increase to FTP is with a view to make improvements elsewhere, then there are other training options you could explore within the amount of time you have available to you per week.

^
This is good advice. There’s more to be gained by making sure your not wasting any of your existing power, than blindly trying to increase FTP, but still having a problem with inefficiencies and waste.

daniel_b

Thanks for all the replies :-)

It's a bit of an experiment I guess, as much to 'see what happens' as it is to keep my interest.
Granted I could simply take some time off the bike, but I don't like the idea of abandoning training altogether (I do enjoy it) so this seems a reasonable method.

I ride a fair bit on RGT and do a little bit of racing, and am starting a TT weekly event this evening which I am looking forward to.

Over lockdowns and Christmas I have put on about 6kg in weight, and lost power.
At one point I was 63.5kg with an FTP of 255, I'm now 70kg & 225, so a double whammy, 4w/kg to 3.2w/kg.

20% drop effectively.

My aim this year is to shift some of that weight, and increase my FTP, and if i could get up to around 3.6 or 3.7w/kg I would be content with that.

I've trained with Trainerroad for several years now, and enjoy their workouts, and for someone with loads going on, there workout plans you can just choose, juggle the days and it's there for the next 8 weeks without me having to think about it, usually works really well.

Only now I'm looking to try something a bit different, just to see if it re-invigorates me, and maybe I see some positive results - if I don't, not much lost really.
Although I appreciate the endurance side of things could well suffer in the long run.
Also looking to start TT's out on the real road soon (If I can get my bike built up) and as those will mostly be 10's, endurance won't be a factor there.

Before I started any structured training, I used to ride at around 70rpm, when I got into trainerroad, it got me up to about the 90 mark, though an average ride would be around 85-88.
Interestingly last summer, when I put in my fastest ever rides, I found that I was dropping my cadence and pushing more, so I think I was averaging very early 70s for a fast 20 or a fast 50, and maybe that is how my body works best, which would be full circle having started off at that kind of cadence but with nothing like the fitness a few years later.

That was the thinking towards a bit more leg strength - if my legs are more powerful, then I can push the gear that bit harder for longer.

bompington

Where is Imposter when you need him?

ugo.santalucia

daniel_b said:

Thanks for all the replies :-)



That was the thinking towards a bit more leg strength - if my legs are more powerful, then I can push the gear that bit harder for longer.

As I said above, cyclists with big legs don't seem to be able to do that... they can churn out bigger power numbers, but only for sprints

daniel_b

ugo.santalucia said:

daniel_b said:

Thanks for all the replies :-)



That was the thinking towards a bit more leg strength - if my legs are more powerful, then I can push the gear that bit harder for longer.

As I said above, cyclists with big legs don't seem to be able to do that... they can churn out bigger power numbers, but only for sprints

I guess part way there would be helpful - pretty much all RGT races start (I am told) like CX races, and then maybe settle down after 10-15 minutes - sometimes less.
Most of the time I am unable to keep up with the initial 300-350w effort to keep within the group, and with the drafting effect, if you slip off the back, you're history. So a bit more power in that instance would prove very handy to having a longer interest in a race.

super_davo

Reading your last post I'd say mix it up. To hit a given power, some days do it at lower RPMs than you feel comfortable with (as low as 60) other days higher (100+). If you want to increase power you need both force per revolution and revolutions; you're not going to gain any power if you push a 5% bigger gear if your legs are going 5% slower.

There is no right or wrong cadence, only what feels natural to you; but it certainly helps to know how it feels when you need to step outside the narrow band of what feels comfortable e.g. if you run out of gears on a climb or if everybody just "steps on it" all of a sudden.

Strength training definitely has its place - particularly in respect of your core and general fitness - I just can't see it is the answer to your specific problem.

For what its worth I found I had exactly the same as you with respect to training in ERG mode - you end up spinning faster because it feels easier on your legs to hit a given power (you can feel the trainer dropping the resistance). However, in the real world I settle on a lower cadence because gear choice isn't that precise; spinning faster without the corresponding reduction in resistance just raises your heart rate. But don't overthink it - just go back to what feels comfortable!

imposter2.0

daniel_b said:

That was the thinking towards a bit more leg strength - if my legs are more powerful, then I can push the gear that bit harder for longer.

That's not how it works. Strength and power are not the same thing. Endurance cycling relies on aerobic fitness and the repeated application of relatively low pedal force inputs - typically a lot less than 13-15kg/f which is the kind of force you might apply through the pedals when grinding up a steep climb. Forces applied on the flat whilst underway are likely to be anything from a bit - to a lot - less than that.

So, in other words, if your legs are currently not strong enough to push 15kg then yes, you might need more leg strength. However, if you are already capable of standing, walking, etc then it is likely that your legs can already cope with weights significantly higher than that already.

So, on that basis, what you DON'T need is more leg strength. What you DO need is a better level of aerobic fitness, which is best gained by riding your bike more. If you are currently only riding 3-4 hours per week, then you have a lot of scope for improvement and you will see much higher levels of improvement by staying off the weights and getting out on the bike.

Weight training has a number of useful applications in cycling - but your particular scenario is probably not one of them. On the other hand, there's no particular reason why someone in your situation shouldn't use weights - they certainly won't do you any harm, but they will not give you the specific performance improvements you seem to be looking for.

This sub-forum has a number of epic discussions on this topic with contributions from some highly credible performance coaches and sports scientists. Well worth doing a search for more info. HTH.

shortfall

Welcome back Imposter 👍

Markall84

I had great success with doing squads and leg presses, and i agree with weeboo that you need to go hard and heavy. I usually do it mostly in the off season, and i definately feel i'm able to get into it faster this way

zest28

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Dan - as others have said I am still yet to see any evidence showing how strength/weight training can improve FTP or aerobic endurance in general. I do think there is something to be said for having good core strength which can reduce injury risk, improve your position/stability on the bike and perhaps lead to improved pedalling technique and efficiency. Whilst that won't improve FTP it still adds something to your overall ability to perform well on a bike (you could possibly make a logical argument that better core strength and pedalling efficiency might make you a little faster for the same power levels).

The thing that always interests me, is why are you looking to improve FTP? Is it just to get your numbers up a bit for personal interest (nothing wrong with that if so), or do you have other plans? I only ask, as if the desired increase to FTP is with a view to make improvements elsewhere, then there are other training options you could explore within the amount of time you have available to you per week.

A few guys with a FTP over 350W have said that strength training helped them, so I take their word for it.

If someone with a FTP of 200W says strength training doesn't work, it is just noise to me as they do not have any results to back up their claim.

dennisn

So there you have it. People on this site who aren't world class athletes telling you weights don't work. Also, you have people on this site who aren't world class athletes telling you it does work. Neither really seems to know. Take your pick, one or the other. In the end if you want to be world class of even national caliber you're going to have listen to people who have been there, not the people on this site.

jimbohorizontal

Alex Dowsett has just done a video on what he does in the gym...

https://youtu.be/TYvfkBRZllk

super_davo

Good video (I was going to post a link but Jimbo beat me to it). But pretty much saying the same as everyone here i.e. he does weight training to help his core so he can activate muscles effectively and stay injury free. But not a direct more strength = more FTP which was the original ask.

I suppose strong core leads to effective muscle activation leads to improved technique leads to improved power output for a given effort... but its certainly not a direct relationship.

imposter2.0

If you can get past the adverts for the social media app and for the guy's gym (although the gym does look pretty decent, tbf), it turns out to be just a relatively straightforward S&C workout. Not that it was actually claiming to be anything else.

Ironically, the video is titled "Does weight lifting make you faster", but as far as I could tell the question is never directly addressed in the clip. Also worth pointing out that 'weight lifting' does not necessarily have to mean 'strength' work. 105 x 4 for Mr Dowsett's weight (75kg, according to the internet), is probably not going to give him additional leg strength or muscle bulk, but will likely help with conditioning.

yorkshireraw

Dowsett will already be riding his bike a lot more than the OP.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

A few guys with a FTP over 350W have said that strength training helped them, so I take their word for it.

If someone with a FTP of 200W says strength training doesn't work, it is just noise to me as they do not have any results to back up their claim

Like I said, I have never seen any evidence for it. A 'few guys' I know told me it works does not constitute scientific evidence. How do they know it helped them, what direct causal link do they have between weight training and FTP improvements? My guess is none.

I have several years of lab tests data done with a lecturer in Sports Science who was track cycling coach for BC for a number of years. That clearly shows direct improvements in FTP, MAP, VO2 max amongst other metrics, all a direct and provable result of increased aerobic fitness achieved through (guess what?), riding my bike more and with clear structured training.

Anyone is free to train in whatever way they like, but saying there is proof that weight training increases FTP is unfounded, whereas saying that structured cycling training to increase aerobic fitness and improve FTP is pretty wellfounded, with lots of evidence to back up the claim.

legendary_27

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Anyone is free to train in whatever way they like, but saying there is proof that weight training increases FTP is unfounded, whereas saying that structured cycling training to increase aerobic fitness and improve FTP is pretty wellfounded, with lots of evidence to back up the claim.

This should be automatically added to any thread that involves strength training !

ugo.santalucia

zest28 said:

A few guys with a FTP over 350W have said that strength training helped them, so I take their word for it.

If someone with a FTP of 200W says strength training doesn't work, it is just noise to me as they do not have any results to back up their claim.

I have a few friends with an FTP > 300... they are all useless on the bike, because they weigh nearly 90 kg and I can drop them with not much effort.
I've never achieved anything higher than 250 W for 20 minutes in any TT race, so there...

MrsR

New to thinking about cycling having just sat and pedalled on my bike for 15 years (so forgive me if I’m missing something), but surely the extent to which FTP can improve by incorporating strength work will be dependent on (and limited by) the OP’s VO2 Max which has to be related? This is what @imposter2.0 alluded to and it makes no sense to me to talk about strength work in isolation like it’s some magic ingredient. A bit like talking about applied strength in any sport, without considering neuromuscular activation (or “specificity” to use layman’s terms). Or increasing running pace without considering aerobic capacity (although, even then, VO2 max isn’t an accurate predictor of absolute potential). Our physiology is made up of a complex bundle of bones, soft tissue, nervous system and associated neurology after all. Discussing the psychological (and possible placebo effect) probably could take up a discussion in itself. As could the OP address his nutrition to lose the gained weight and directly impact FTP without lifting a single weight (and risking compromising cycling performance).

Edited to add: I’m sure you know and will just use it as an example but I do tell my kids and athletes I coach never to go and copy stuff they see online that’s particular to that person. We are all so individual it’s guaranteed to disappoint, waste your time or (worse) lead to injury. As for doing what someone told you to do on the internet in an online forum...

brundonbianchi

Do squats.

bobones

@therobertscollection FTP (functional threshold power) describes only one aspect of your cycling performance potential. Peak power (the absolute maximum power you can generate in an all out sprint when you are in a non-fatigued state) is another important component, and this can be increased through strength training. In fact, strength training is probably the best way to improve peak power as just 'cycling lots' doesn't really impact it that much I have found. (Cycling lots does improve FTP though).

Peak power is intuitively obviously important. Consider 2 cyclists (of the same weight) with an FTP of 250 watts, one has a peak power of 1200 watts, and the other has a peak power of 800 watts. Who is the "stronger" cyclist? Who can cycle at 350 or 450 watts the longest time before they're exhausted? If these cyclist arrive at the finishing straight together, who's most likely to win the sprint?

You can put aside all that physiological complexity you mention, because It turns out, mathematically, that we only need 3 parameters to describe and predict any cyclist's performance capability over their entire power duration curve: peak power, threshold power and a capacity factor called (W prime or high intensity energy in some literature). In other words, for any cyclist, if you know these 3 things then you can accurately state their 1 second power, 5 minute power, 1 hour power etc. and even predict what their point of failure will be at any given wattage.

Crucially, if these are the only important parameters in deciding your performance potential, then these are the only parameters you need to train to improve! That's a eureka moment right there and demonstrates that you should train to improve not only your FTP, but also to improve your Peak Power and HIE.

How that is best achieved is up for debate, but it's obvious that specific strength training with weights will increase peak power and therefore make you a better cyclist, as long as it doesn't adversely affect the other 2 parameters, which it may if you are too sore to pedal your bike!

MrsR

bobones said:

@therobertscollection FTP (functional threshold power) describes only one aspect of your cycling performance potential. Peak power (the absolute maximum power you can generate in an all out sprint when you are in a non-fatigued state) is another important component, and this can be increased through strength training. In fact, strength training is probably the best way to improve peak power as just 'cycling lots' doesn't really impact it that much I have found. (Cycling lots does improve FTP though).

Peak power is intuitively obviously important. Consider 2 cyclists (of the same weight) with an FTP of 250 watts, one has a peak power of 1200 watts, and the other has a peak power of 800 watts. Who is the "stronger" cyclist? Who can cycle at 350 or 450 watts the longest time before they're exhausted? If these cyclist arrive at the finishing straight together, who's most likely to win the sprint?

You can put aside all that physiological complexity you mention, because It turns out, mathematically, that we only need 3 parameters to describe and predict any cyclist's performance capability over their entire power duration curve: peak power, threshold power and a capacity factor called (W prime or high intensity energy in some literature). In other words, for any cyclist, if you know these 3 things then you can accurately state their 1 second power, 5 minute power, 1 hour power etc. and even predict what their point of failure will be at any given wattage.

Crucially, if these are the only important parameters in deciding your performance potential, then these are the only parameters you need to train to improve! That's a eureka moment right there and demonstrates that you should train to improve not only your FTP, but also to improve your Peak Power and HIE.

How that is best achieved is up for debate, but it's obvious that specific strength training with weights will increase peak power and therefore make you a better cyclist, as long as it doesn't adversely affect the other 2 parameters, which it may if you are too sore to pedal your bike!

@bobones Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that to me. It is much appreciated and certainly helps me understand the relevant variables much better. It has made me curious about one thing though? For females, depending on where we sit in our menstrual cycle, our capacity for strength and endurance can be compromised. How would we want to think about working with our bodies optimally if we factor in those considerations (as women are not small men). Would we mentally adjust peak power, ignore the numbers/predictions when strength is most compromised, and focus more on endurance riding and building the aerobic base (and not hit the weights room that phase of the cycle)?

(Apologies to the OP for hijacking the post to incorporate a female perspective.)

MrsR

bobones said:

@therobertscollection FTP (functional threshold power) describes only one aspect of your cycling performance potential. Peak power (the absolute maximum power you can generate in an all out sprint when you are in a non-fatigued state) is another important component, and this can be increased through strength training. In fact, strength training is probably the best way to improve peak power as just 'cycling lots' doesn't really impact it that much I have found. (Cycling lots does improve FTP though).

Peak power is intuitively obviously important. Consider 2 cyclists (of the same weight) with an FTP of 250 watts, one has a peak power of 1200 watts, and the other has a peak power of 800 watts. Who is the "stronger" cyclist? Who can cycle at 350 or 450 watts the longest time before they're exhausted? If these cyclist arrive at the finishing straight together, who's most likely to win the sprint?

You can put aside all that physiological complexity you mention, because It turns out, mathematically, that we only need 3 parameters to describe and predict any cyclist's performance capability over their entire power duration curve: peak power, threshold power and a capacity factor called (W prime or high intensity energy in some literature). In other words, for any cyclist, if you know these 3 things then you can accurately state their 1 second power, 5 minute power, 1 hour power etc. and even predict what their point of failure will be at any given wattage.

Crucially, if these are the only important parameters in deciding your performance potential, then these are the only parameters you need to train to improve! That's a eureka moment right there and demonstrates that you should train to improve not only your FTP, but also to improve your Peak Power and HIE.

How that is best achieved is up for debate, but it's obvious that specific strength training with weights will increase peak power and therefore make you a better cyclist, as long as it doesn't adversely affect the other 2 parameters, which it may if you are too sore to pedal your bike!

@bobones Thank you so much for that explanation. It is much appreciated and really clarifies things for me. But it does leave me wondering one thing. Females have to factor in our menstrual cycle in training, as endurance and strength can be seriously compromised depending on where we are in our cycles. How could we adjust our predicted output? Or do we simply avoid ignore peak power, the weights room and sprints (when strength is known to be compromised during that phase of the cycle) and focus on building the aerobic base and endurance? Personally speaking, it can vary from month to month but isn't necessarily the case for all female athletes. So a degree of understanding and predictability is useful for those who compete as obviously race dates are out of our control.

(Apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread for the female cyclists).