The Pet Thread

laurentian

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

There are 10 million cats in the UK. One each in a year gives you a quite big number.

I'm in the "that's just the way it is" camp, circle of life etc.

Yeah but that's the forward calculation and it produces an erroneous number. One of my cats used to catch about 2 a week at one point. Extrapolated over 10 million cata that's more birds than there actually are. It isn't the way to do these things.

I wasn't meaning that would be an accurate number, just that a large number doesn't seem ridiculous. Or a problem.

Perhaps. I'd have thought one in 7 of all birds would qualify as a rediculous estimate. It isn't as though cats haul in many geese or seaguls is it? If you narrow it down to the ickle species the actually catch, you run out of ickle birds.

This is a fair point and, without doubt, it looks like definitive figures are hard to get.

Although I'm not statistician, I would add however that, if we're talking statistically, surely the number of birds that "are" does not equate to the number of birds that "would have been". The birds that are dead cannot be coflated with the 84 million pairs that are alive. So, no, you wouldn't necessarily "run out of ickle birds", just not have as many as you would have had otherwise (even if the sick/dying ones predated are taken into account)

Cat v Goose would be a good fight.

First.Aspect

Had a few cat Vs magpie situations. Magpie won. And one cat Vs pidgeon situation. Cat won.

Here's my reasoning - say ickle birds make up half of all bird numbers. So that 15% of all birds becomes 30% of ickle birds. Annually.

Do you still think that wouldn't manifest as species decline?

laurentian

First.Aspect said:

Had a few cat Vs magpie situations. Magpie won. And one cat Vs pidgeon situation. Cat won.

Here's my reasoning - say ickle birds make up half of all bird numbers. So that 15% of all birds becomes 30% of ickle birds. Annually.

Do you still think that wouldn't manifest as species decline?

Again, a good point and, probably not. Indeed the RSPB and others have said as much (that it hasn't/ doesn't manifest in species decline). Species decline is not and has never been the basis of the discussion. The threshold of species decline is not a great benchmark from which I consider the situation should be managed or contemplated but I appreciate that some may consider it so.

DeVlaeminck

It'd be interesting to know the impact of the domestic cat on different species. Obviously it's be nice to have more song birds in the garden, not sure I want more rats - though apparently cats are reluctant to tackle an adult rat (can't say I blame them) they do act as a deterrent to rats taking up residence in the area.

webboo

Well there is one East Yorkshire wood mouse that got to live a bit longer yesterday after the cooking fat brought it in to house last night. Managed to catch it after chasing it round for 15 minutes and released it after making sure the cat couldn’t get out of the house.

kingstongraham

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

laurentian

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

pangolin

laurentian said:

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

In a few short years we'd be overrun by exponential birds!

Come on apply a bit of thought. Pet cats are not a limiting factor on bird population.

trevor.hall12

My 2

Stevo_666

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

kingstongraham

laurentian said:

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

So thank god for cats, otherwise we'd be living in a hitchcock film.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

pinno

My cat would probably shag anything except... he's had the snip.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

Except that wildcats don't socialise with humans.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

Except that wildcats don't socialise with humans.

At some point that appears to have changed.

Not arguing they are the same, just questioning if they are a different species.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

Except that wildcats don't socialise with humans.

At some point that appears to have changed.

Not arguing they are the same, just questioning if they are a different species.

From what I understand there isn't a single rigid definition of what a species is and fundamentally it is an artificial classification that we are trying to apply to something that isn't that neat and tidy. If we want to call those differences a separate species or not is up to us.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

Except that wildcats don't socialise with humans.

At some point that appears to have changed.

Not arguing they are the same, just questioning if they are a different species.

From what I understand there isn't a single rigid definition of what a species is and fundamentally it is an artificial classification that we are trying to apply to something that isn't that neat and tidy. If we want to call those differences a separate species or not is up to us.

In that case I will tolerate your use of the term.

rjsterry

I am honoured 😏

I think it was in Russia that there was an experiment to selectively breed wild foxes for sociability with humans.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/animals/article/fox-dogs-wild-tame-genetics-study-news

There were some intriguing effects on their appearance: they started to look more doggy as well as becoming more sociable.

pangolin

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'm a dog owner and more of a 'dog person' than a 'cat person' but to be fair to cats, one of my dogs has managed to catch 4 live birds - 2 blackbirds and a pigeon in our garden and a duckling in the local park that had strayed outside the fence around the lake.

Also a mate of mine who lives in the sticks says his cats are very handy for dealing with mice which will invariably get into the house from time to time. I'm guessing they are also quite handy on farms.

There wouldn't be domestic cats without farming. Their emergence as a distinct species and evolution to be sociable with humans dates to roughly the same time that we started farming and therefore storing grain. Stored grain > rodents > reliable food source for cats.

Are domestic cats a distinct species? They can breed with Scottish wild cats, Asian leapoard cats and whatever produces the Savannah cat.

Dogs can breed with wolves, coyotes and jackals. Some people argue that dogs are still effectively domesticated wolves. The definition of a species is a bit fuzzy.

That was kind of my point. The genetic diversity amongst cats is quite small, esp compared to dogs. They are basically still African wildcats.

Except that wildcats don't socialise with humans.

Sounds like a lot of pet cats

pinno

rjsterry said:

I am honoured 😏

I think it was in Russia that there was an experiment to selectively breed wild foxes for sociability with humans.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/animals/article/fox-dogs-wild-tame-genetics-study-news

There were some intriguing effects on their appearance: they started to look more doggy as well as becoming more sociable.

Yes - it took 3 generations to become 'domesticated'.

Wheelspinner

Three years to the day since we got her from the pound.

laurentian

pangolin said:

laurentian said:

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

In a few short years we'd be overrun by exponential birds!

Come on apply a bit of thought. Pet cats are not a limiting factor on bird population.

. . . again, this has never been the basis of the discussion, has never been claimed and, right from the off, the fact that they don't cause population decline has been agreed! I honestly see where you're coming from but, again, I don't see the threshold of population decline as a great benchmark.

kingstongraham

laurentian said:

pangolin said:

laurentian said:

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

In a few short years we'd be overrun by exponential birds!

Come on apply a bit of thought. Pet cats are not a limiting factor on bird population.

. . . again, this has never been the basis of the discussion, has never been claimed and, right from the off, the fact that they don't cause population decline has been agreed! I honestly see where you're coming from but, again, I don't see the threshold of population decline as a great benchmark.

Why not?

laurentian

kingstongraham said:

laurentian said:

pangolin said:

laurentian said:

kingstongraham said:

I've got a feeling that birds might reproduce, so if a million get killed that doesn't result in a decline of a million.

This is true - it'll be way more of the potential population. Think of the multiples of descendents that a million dead birds would have produced

In a few short years we'd be overrun by exponential birds!

Come on apply a bit of thought. Pet cats are not a limiting factor on bird population.

. . . again, this has never been the basis of the discussion, has never been claimed and, right from the off, the fact that they don't cause population decline has been agreed! I honestly see where you're coming from but, again, I don't see the threshold of population decline as a great benchmark.

Why not?

Because I believe we should let all species flourish if at all possible - don't you? It would be a pretty sad world if we were to persecute, predate, exterminate* etc. down to the point whereby their population lies in the balance (which is the threshold of population decline). A severe winter, for instance, thereafter could see the decline of smaller songbirds if their population was at the threshold of decline before it. There has to be some "slack" in the "system". We've almost certainly got enough wrens in the country but whittling down their numbers to the point at which they are stable and not declining seems a strange thing to do or to be comfortable with. (I could be missing your point here!)

Population decline was never a legitimate argument in the banning of fox hunting - this seemed to be taken from a moral and ethical standpoint rather than any argument as to the health of the fox population.

Although we can argue about the numbers and effects on population, I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that cats kill birds and small mammals** and that the number of of these deaths is in the millions. I am just suggesting that, perhaps, people could consider that some of these deaths could be prevented through the sort of controls that we have with dogs, applying to cats. I also realise that this is unlikley to be a popular opinion among cat owners and respect that opinion.

*before I'm flamed, I know that cats alone don't do this

** I am also aware that agriculture, loss of habitat, pollution and a whole host of other things have severe effects on animal and bird populations.

First.Aspect

Your point still relies on the premise that cats are making an impact on populations.

Personally I think they might be a bit, even though there are not robust data available, but then the populations near my house are artificially inflated by food sources we provide anyway.

laurentian

First.Aspect said:

Personally I think they might be a bit,

. . . it's this "bit" that I see as preventable and uneccessary and this alone is the premise of my point.

kingstongraham

What do you mean by "their population lies in the balance"?

If there's no population decline, then "in balance" means that there are as many born as die which, if there's plenty of them, is pretty much what you'd want, isn't it? It doesn't mean that their survival as a species hangs in the balance.

I don't much like cats, but they're just part of the environment as we've made it now. They'll kill stuff.