Wheel axle issue

mrobertson277

Bought a second set of wheels for my ca. 2007 Bianchi San Lorenzo. Stock wheels/hubs are Mavic Ksyrium Elite (that's how the hubs are labeled). The wheels I purchased are Shimano Dura-Ace HB7900 hubs. The hub widths on the DA are identical to the Mavics (i.e. from one side of frame/fork to the other). However, the diameter of the QR axle itself on the Dura-Ace hubs won't allow them to fit into my frame. I don't own calipers, but they seem to be about 1mm to big in diameter. I'm wondering what the possible fixes are for this.

So far I've heard:
1) file the dropouts carefully to create space
2) Chuck one end of the axle into a drill and hold a file or sandpaper on the other end to remove material from the axle

Any thoughts?

rafletcher

File the dropouts.

mrobertson277

@oxoman its the thing the skewer goes through--isnt that an axle? I know its not a "through-axle," like you see on a disc brake bike...

david37

Hmmm a picture might help here.

Just a thought, the springs on the skewer are the right way round arent they? They can cause the issue you describe.

Without being rude, you dont sound super familiar with al this stuff, dont start filing things just yet. The frame is 2007 not 1977, everything was following a nice standardised format years before that and Mavic and Shimano are major players, everything should work fine.

Since you havent got a calliper to measure and put your mind at rest just check there is nothing else happening. The skewer spring as I mentioned is often a culprit.

(Accepting of course i might have forgotten weird changes from 15 years ago)

masjer

Will the axle fit into the non drive-side dropout? If so, it might be the hanger (the alloy piece the rear derailleur bolts to) and not the dropout itself. You could certainly file the hanger (or check its mounted correctly).

Ben6899

david37 said:

Hmmm a picture might help here.

Just a thought, the springs on the skewer are the right way round arent they? They can cause the issue you describe.

Without being rude, you dont sound super familiar with al this stuff, dont start filing things just yet. The frame is 2007 not 1977, everything was following a nice standardised format years before that and Mavic and Shimano are major players, everything should work fine.

Since you havent got a calliper to measure and put your mind at rest just check there is nothing else happening. The skewer spring as I mentioned is often a culprit.

(Accepting of course i might have forgotten weird changes from 15 years ago)

We rarely agree, David, but you're right that a new wheel should fit into a 2007 frame with no issues - I own (have owned) a few 90s frames and never had this.

veronese68

Mr37 is good on his workshop stuff and I agree with him. The axle will be a standard diameter and there should be no need for filing anything.
Take the quick release right off with the springs and offer it up so you can see exactly what is happening. If you still can't see anything wrong get a second opinion. If you start filing bits off unnecessarily putting them back is not easy.

Ben6899

Taking the QR off is a good idea. I had one bike* where the QR nut fouled the rear mech where it attached the hanger. Only as you inserted the wheel, once in the dropout no problem.

*open mould frame, design error which was only as bad as frustrating.

mrobertson277

@david37 I did some more fussing around with the wheelset and here's what I learned:
1) The issue is only with the rear wheel. The front wheel slides into the fork dropouts just fine.
2) I removed the QR skewer so I could better see what was going on. See photo:

That's as far as the wheel will slide into the rear dropouts. You can see the marks on the derailleur hanger where I tried securing it in place with the QR and the serrations on the QR nut dug in.

3) I took the QR skewer out of the stock Mavic rear wheel and held the Mavic axle and the DuraAce axle face to face. Again, I don't have calipers, but it looks like the DA axle is just a mm or less larger in diameter, which is preventing it sliding into the dropouts.

4) For kicks, I took ANOTHER rear wheel with a Bontrager hub and it had the same issue (won't fit into the rear dropouts).

Wondering if Mavic had some kind of proprietary deal with Bianchi for this bike (2007 San Lorenzo).

Next step is to buy a set of calipers and head down to my LBS to see what they say (unless any of you have insights/ideas?)

masjer

Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.

arlowood

masjer said:

Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.

That could work if the OP is confident he can file to an accuracy of 0.5mm. Not sure I would risk it. Could end up with the axle being slightly off centre but maybe the QR would be able to keep it straight enough.

One other possibility would be to buy an expanding reamer that covers the range of the wheel axle. This would possible be a better solution than relying on filing.

Something like this:-



Lots available on Fleabay once you determine the size range you need.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADJUSTABLE-HAND-REAMER-H1-H2-H3-H4-H5-UK-STOCKIST/271849921409?hash=item3f4b849b81:g:zX0AAOSwpDdVO5da&var=570685296225

david37

or fit a new hanger, much easier and probs £15

masjer

david37 said:

or fit a new hanger, much easier and probs £15

The hanger is plenty wide enough, it's the dropout behind the hanger that's too narrow.
Two minutes with a file (even using the hanger as a guide) and problem fixed. Alignment won't be an issue- it's not a precision fit.

veronese68

A new hanger is not a bad idea, everything below would be better with a new hanger. The alignment between the hanger and the frame behind doesn't look great. Try loosening the hanger attachment screws a little and see if the wheel drops in. If so tighten the screws with the wheel in place.
If not, remove the hanger. Does the hanger fit over the axle? If so mark the frame to show how much material you would have to remove so it matches the hanger, then very carefully file the dropout in the frame. Take off a little bit and offer it up again so you don't go too far.
Good luck

piker2

arlowood said:

masjer said:

Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.

That could work if the OP is confident he can file to an accuracy of 0.5mm. Not sure I would risk it. Could end up with the axle being slightly off centre but maybe the QR would be able to keep it straight enough.

One other possibility would be to buy an expanding reamer that covers the range of the wheel axle. This would possible be a better solution than relying on filing.

Something like this:-



Lots available on Fleabay once you determine the size range you need.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADJUSTABLE-HAND-REAMER-H1-H2-H3-H4-H5-UK-STOCKIST/271849921409?hash=item3f4b849b81:g:zX0AAOSwpDdVO5da&var=570685296225

That is for making holes bigger. No use for making a slot bigger. It is hard to tell from the photo but ,as David says ,I would start with a new hanger.

Ben6899

The hanger looks plenty wide enough, as far as I can make out.

@veronese68 idea is a good one. Loosen the hanger and see if the wheel will then go in. Then re-tighten.

photonic69

Axels are 9mm aren’t they?

How about a 9mm round file? Job done

https://www.toolbank.com/p/FAIFIRSC10

piker2

Just looking again OP. Will the axle fit on the non drive side ?

mrobertson277

@piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either.

MattFalle

.

me-109

Looks like the frame might have been dropped on the drop-outs without a wheel in, closing the slot on both sides of the frame. Either file away using the suggestion from Veronese or slip a suitable spanner/socket-on-breaker-bar over the rear jaw and prise open. Won't take a lot to do and harder to undo if you go too far.

If filing, file the back side and you won't affect alignment.

piker2

mrobertson277 said:

@piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either.

Well ,that rules out a hanger problem. It looks like time to get a file out.

A few years ago I got a new alloy road frame off Planet X. The first thing I did with it was to fit a rear wheel to check how much tyre clearance there was. The wheel would not go in the drop outs. It looked like your photo.
I put it down to sh1t quality control and I sent it back. Coincidence or what?

david37

It might be time to douse in ptrol and burn it. But i defer to the mfs on matters like this

veronese68

mrobertson277 said:

@piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either.

Balls. Me109 may be right in that both sides have closed up, but then the Mavic wheel wouldn't fit. Looks like filing a tiny bit off might be the way then, sorry. Before going down the smash it, torch it and throwing it into next doors garden route you could consider giving it to me as a gift of course

david37

veronese68 said:

mrobertson277 said:

@piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either.

Balls. Me109 may be right in that both sides have closed up, but then the Mavic wheel wouldn't fit. Looks like filing a tiny bit off might be the way then, sorry. Before going down the smash it, torch it and throwing it into next doors garden route you could consider giving it to me as a gift of course

you could test it for him

mrobertson277

@veronese68 @piker2 @david37 I got it fixed. Here's how I did it:

1) Bought a set of calipers and measured the inside diameter of both rear dropouts. Drive side 9.5 mm. Non drive side 9.75 mm.

2) measured outside diameter of Mavic (stock) axles: 9mm

3) measured outside diameter of new wheels (10 mm on both the Dura Ace and Bontrager).

4) chucked one end of the Bontrager hub (which I bought for $30 and wasn't worried about wrecking) into a drill.

5) held the narrow edge of a file to the other end of hub while spinning the drill high speed and gradually removed .5 mm of material.

Photos:

Couldn't get an shot solo, but you get the idea. Was easier to hold the file square to the hub using the narrow edge rather than the wide (better site line).






Plenty of thickness left on the hollow axles so not concerned about axle failure.

Repeated the procedure in the Dura Ace wheels with even better results having used the Bontrager to practice my technique.

Didn't modify the frame at all except to loosen and re center the derailleur hanger on the dropout as suggested here.

Thanks all for your ideas and help!

david37

mrobertson277 said:

@veronese68 @piker2 @david37 I got it fixed. Here's how I did it:

1) Bought a set of calipers and measured the inside diameter of both rear dropouts. Drive side 9.5 mm. Non drive side 9.75 mm.

2) measured outside diameter of Mavic (stock) axles: 9mm

3) measured outside diameter of new wheels (10 mm on both the Dura Ace and Bontrager).

4) chucked one end of the Bontrager hub (which I bought for $30 and wasn't worried about wrecking) into a drill.

5) held the narrow edge of a file to the other end of hub while spinning the drill high speed and gradually removed .5 mm of material.

Photos:

Couldn't get an shot solo, but you get the idea. Was easier to hold the file square to the hub using the narrow edge rather than the wide (better site line).






Plenty of thickness left on the hollow axles so not concerned about axle failure.

Repeated the procedure in the Dura Ace wheels with even better results having used the Bontrager to practice my technique.

Didn't modify the frame at all except to loosen and re center the derailleur hanger on the dropout as suggested here.

Thanks all for your ideas and help!

Awesome job! thanks for the pics and the feedback. I'm off to measure old hubs now

Ben6899

Good work, OP. What a result!

Begs the question though - what is/was out of spec, the dropouts or the new hub axle stubs?

piker2

Well done. Your problem is sorted but we have not really got to the bottom of things.
I have swopped wheels and frames countless times without a problem. There seems to be two axle and drop out sizes but nobody seems to know about them.

Ben6899

piker2 said:

Well done. Your problem is sorted but we have not really got to the bottom of things.
I have swopped wheels and frames countless times without a problem. There seems to be two axle and drop out sizes but nobody seems to know about them.

And very few people have run into the problem!

mrobertson277

@piker2 @Ben6899 Thanks! Yeah I've been riding/wrenching bikes for 30 years and have never come across this before. I had always assumed 9mm was the standard for axle diameter, and dropouts typically have a little leeway so you can get the wheel in/out without too much fuss.

Hopefully my frame is just a one-off or a manufacturing defect of some sort. I've not come across others experiencing this issue after searching around for a while. Glad I found this forum!