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Wheel axle issue

Bought a second set of wheels for my ca. 2007 Bianchi San Lorenzo. Stock wheels/hubs are Mavic Ksyrium Elite (that's how the hubs are labeled). The wheels I purchased are Shimano Dura-Ace HB7900 hubs. The hub widths on the DA are identical to the Mavics (i.e. from one side of frame/fork to the other). However, the diameter of the QR axle itself on the Dura-Ace hubs won't allow them to fit into my frame. I don't own calipers, but they seem to be about 1mm to big in diameter. I'm wondering what the possible fixes are for this.

So far I've heard:
1) file the dropouts carefully to create space
2) Chuck one end of the axle into a drill and hold a file or sandpaper on the other end to remove material from the axle

Any thoughts?
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Posts

  • rafletcherrafletcher Posts: 1,235
    File the dropouts.
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 9,441
    Seriously take it to a bike shop or get a decent bike mechanic have a look before filling anything. I'm not sure axles were around in 2007 for road bikes. I'm assuming you mean Quick release skewers. You would be better double checking compatibility before altering anything.
    Too many bikes according to Mrs O.
  • @oxoman its the thing the skewer goes through--isnt that an axle? I know its not a "through-axle," like you see on a disc brake bike...
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 9,441
    I'm assuming you mean what some people call the axle stub. This is the tube the skewer goes through. It may be possible to file your dropouts but I've never heard of it done as it limits your wheel selection. I was under the impression that the dropout slots were a standard size. You would have to be careful filing it out as you could file unevenly and possibly end up with the wheel on slant. (Pixxed). Does your frame have removable inserts on the dropouts that can be replaced with correct size. As I said might be worth a call or visit to a bike shop / mechanic before doing anything.
    Too many bikes according to Mrs O.
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313
    edited 12 January
    Hmmm a picture might help here.

    Just a thought, the springs on the skewer are the right way round arent they? They can cause the issue you describe.

    Without being rude, you dont sound super familiar with al this stuff, dont start filing things just yet. The frame is 2007 not 1977, everything was following a nice standardised format years before that and Mavic and Shimano are major players, everything should work fine.

    Since you havent got a calliper to measure and put your mind at rest just check there is nothing else happening. The skewer spring as I mentioned is often a culprit.

    (Accepting of course i might have forgotten weird changes from 15 years ago)
  • masjermasjer Posts: 158
    Will the axle fit into the non drive-side dropout? If so, it might be the hanger (the alloy piece the rear derailleur bolts to) and not the dropout itself. You could certainly file the hanger (or check its mounted correctly).
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,812
    edited 12 January
    david37 said:

    Hmmm a picture might help here.

    Just a thought, the springs on the skewer are the right way round arent they? They can cause the issue you describe.

    Without being rude, you dont sound super familiar with al this stuff, dont start filing things just yet. The frame is 2007 not 1977, everything was following a nice standardised format years before that and Mavic and Shimano are major players, everything should work fine.

    Since you havent got a calliper to measure and put your mind at rest just check there is nothing else happening. The skewer spring as I mentioned is often a culprit.

    (Accepting of course i might have forgotten weird changes from 15 years ago)


    We rarely agree, David, but you're right that a new wheel should fit into a 2007 frame with no issues - I own (have owned) a few 90s frames and never had this.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,350 Lives Here
    Mr37 is good on his workshop stuff and I agree with him. The axle will be a standard diameter and there should be no need for filing anything.
    Take the quick release right off with the springs and offer it up so you can see exactly what is happening. If you still can't see anything wrong get a second opinion. If you start filing bits off unnecessarily putting them back is not easy.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,812
    edited 13 January
    Taking the QR off is a good idea. I had one bike* where the QR nut fouled the rear mech where it attached the hanger. Only as you inserted the wheel, once in the dropout no problem.

    *open mould frame, design error which was only as bad as frustrating.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • @david37 I did some more fussing around with the wheelset and here's what I learned:
    1) The issue is only with the rear wheel. The front wheel slides into the fork dropouts just fine.
    2) I removed the QR skewer so I could better see what was going on. See photo:

    That's as far as the wheel will slide into the rear dropouts. You can see the marks on the derailleur hanger where I tried securing it in place with the QR and the serrations on the QR nut dug in.

    3) I took the QR skewer out of the stock Mavic rear wheel and held the Mavic axle and the DuraAce axle face to face. Again, I don't have calipers, but it looks like the DA axle is just a mm or less larger in diameter, which is preventing it sliding into the dropouts.

    4) For kicks, I took ANOTHER rear wheel with a Bontrager hub and it had the same issue (won't fit into the rear dropouts).

    Wondering if Mavic had some kind of proprietary deal with Bianchi for this bike (2007 San Lorenzo).

    Next step is to buy a set of calipers and head down to my LBS to see what they say (unless any of you have insights/ideas?)
  • masjermasjer Posts: 158
    edited 16 January
    Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,524
    edited 16 January
    masjer said:

    Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.

    That could work if the OP is confident he can file to an accuracy of 0.5mm. Not sure I would risk it. Could end up with the axle being slightly off centre but maybe the QR would be able to keep it straight enough.

    One other possibility would be to buy an expanding reamer that covers the range of the wheel axle. This would possible be a better solution than relying on filing.

    Something like this:-



    Lots available on Fleabay once you determine the size range you need.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADJUSTABLE-HAND-REAMER-H1-H2-H3-H4-H5-UK-STOCKIST/271849921409?hash=item3f4b849b81:g:zX0AAOSwpDdVO5da&var=570685296225
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313
    or fit a new hanger, much easier and probs £15
  • masjermasjer Posts: 158
    david37 said:

    or fit a new hanger, much easier and probs £15

    The hanger is plenty wide enough, it's the dropout behind the hanger that's too narrow.
    Two minutes with a file (even using the hanger as a guide) and problem fixed. Alignment won't be an issue- it's not a precision fit.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,350 Lives Here
    A new hanger is not a bad idea, everything below would be better with a new hanger. The alignment between the hanger and the frame behind doesn't look great. Try loosening the hanger attachment screws a little and see if the wheel drops in. If so tighten the screws with the wheel in place.
    If not, remove the hanger. Does the hanger fit over the axle? If so mark the frame to show how much material you would have to remove so it matches the hanger, then very carefully file the dropout in the frame. Take off a little bit and offer it up again so you don't go too far.
    Good luck
  • piker2piker2 Posts: 47
    arlowood said:

    masjer said:

    Just carefully file about 0.5mm from both sides of the dropout and it'll be sitting correctly in a flash.

    That could work if the OP is confident he can file to an accuracy of 0.5mm. Not sure I would risk it. Could end up with the axle being slightly off centre but maybe the QR would be able to keep it straight enough.

    One other possibility would be to buy an expanding reamer that covers the range of the wheel axle. This would possible be a better solution than relying on filing.

    Something like this:-



    Lots available on Fleabay once you determine the size range you need.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADJUSTABLE-HAND-REAMER-H1-H2-H3-H4-H5-UK-STOCKIST/271849921409?hash=item3f4b849b81:g:zX0AAOSwpDdVO5da&var=570685296225
    That is for making holes bigger. No use for making a slot bigger. It is hard to tell from the photo but ,as David says ,I would start with a new hanger.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,812
    edited 16 January
    The hanger looks plenty wide enough, as far as I can make out.

    @veronese68 idea is a good one. Loosen the hanger and see if the wheel will then go in. Then re-tighten.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • photonic69photonic69 Posts: 1,176
    Axels are 9mm aren’t they?

    How about a 9mm round file? Job done

    https://www.toolbank.com/p/FAIFIRSC10
  • piker2piker2 Posts: 47
    Just looking again OP. Will the axle fit on the non drive side ?
  • @piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either. :/
  • MattFalleMattFalle Posts: 5,153
    edited 16 January
    .
  • me-109me-109 Posts: 1,395
    edited 16 January
    Looks like the frame might have been dropped on the drop-outs without a wheel in, closing the slot on both sides of the frame. Either file away using the suggestion from Veronese or slip a suitable spanner/socket-on-breaker-bar over the rear jaw and prise open. Won't take a lot to do and harder to undo if you go too far.

    If filing, file the back side and you won't affect alignment.
  • piker2piker2 Posts: 47

    @piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either. :/

    Well ,that rules out a hanger problem. It looks like time to get a file out.

    A few years ago I got a new alloy road frame off Planet X. The first thing I did with it was to fit a rear wheel to check how much tyre clearance there was. The wheel would not go in the drop outs. It looked like your photo.
    I put it down to censored quality control and I sent it back. Coincidence or what?
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313
    It might be time to douse in ptrol and burn it. But i defer to the mfs on matters like this
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,350 Lives Here

    @piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either. :/

    Balls. Me109 may be right in that both sides have closed up, but then the Mavic wheel wouldn't fit. Looks like filing a tiny bit off might be the way then, sorry. Before going down the smash it, torch it and throwing it into next doors garden route you could consider giving it to me as a gift of course ;)
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313

    @piker2 the axle will not fit on the non drive side either. :/

    Balls. Me109 may be right in that both sides have closed up, but then the Mavic wheel wouldn't fit. Looks like filing a tiny bit off might be the way then, sorry. Before going down the smash it, torch it and throwing it into next doors garden route you could consider giving it to me as a gift of course ;)
    you could test it for him :D
  • @veronese68 @piker2 @david37 I got it fixed. Here's how I did it:

    1) Bought a set of calipers and measured the inside diameter of both rear dropouts. Drive side 9.5 mm. Non drive side 9.75 mm.

    2) measured outside diameter of Mavic (stock) axles: 9mm

    3) measured outside diameter of new wheels (10 mm on both the Dura Ace and Bontrager).

    4) chucked one end of the Bontrager hub (which I bought for $30 and wasn't worried about wrecking) into a drill.

    5) held the narrow edge of a file to the other end of hub while spinning the drill high speed and gradually removed .5 mm of material.

    Photos:

    Couldn't get an shot solo, but you get the idea. Was easier to hold the file square to the hub using the narrow edge rather than the wide (better site line).






    Plenty of thickness left on the hollow axles so not concerned about axle failure.

    Repeated the procedure in the Dura Ace wheels with even better results having used the Bontrager to practice my technique.

    Didn't modify the frame at all except to loosen and re center the derailleur hanger on the dropout as suggested here.

    Thanks all for your ideas and help!
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313

    @veronese68 @piker2 @david37 I got it fixed. Here's how I did it:

    1) Bought a set of calipers and measured the inside diameter of both rear dropouts. Drive side 9.5 mm. Non drive side 9.75 mm.

    2) measured outside diameter of Mavic (stock) axles: 9mm

    3) measured outside diameter of new wheels (10 mm on both the Dura Ace and Bontrager).

    4) chucked one end of the Bontrager hub (which I bought for $30 and wasn't worried about wrecking) into a drill.

    5) held the narrow edge of a file to the other end of hub while spinning the drill high speed and gradually removed .5 mm of material.

    Photos:

    Couldn't get an shot solo, but you get the idea. Was easier to hold the file square to the hub using the narrow edge rather than the wide (better site line).






    Plenty of thickness left on the hollow axles so not concerned about axle failure.

    Repeated the procedure in the Dura Ace wheels with even better results having used the Bontrager to practice my technique.

    Didn't modify the frame at all except to loosen and re center the derailleur hanger on the dropout as suggested here.

    Thanks all for your ideas and help!

    Awesome job! thanks for the pics and the feedback. I'm off to measure old hubs now :)
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,812
    Good work, OP. What a result!

    Begs the question though - what is/was out of spec, the dropouts or the new hub axle stubs?
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • piker2piker2 Posts: 47
    Well done. Your problem is sorted but we have not really got to the bottom of things.
    I have swopped wheels and frames countless times without a problem. There seems to be two axle and drop out sizes but nobody seems to know about them.
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