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Head Injuries

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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,837
    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:



    There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

    But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.
    Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.
    Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.
    Cricket and NFL. Two sports recently wrestling with concussion problems.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,912
    edited December 2020

    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:



    There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

    But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.
    Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.
    Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.
    Cricket and NFL. Two sports recently wrestling with concussion problems.
    Add on ice hockey. As I said, not many.
    And they are all stop/start with natural breaks for assessment.

    One possible option for cycling, neutralise the stage following a crash. Practical?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:



    There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

    But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.
    Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.
    Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.
    Cricket and NFL. Two sports recently wrestling with concussion problems.
    Add on ice hockey. As I said, not many.
    And they are all stop/start with natural breaks for assessment.

    One possible option for cycling, neutralise the stage following a crash. Practical?
    Not really. Ineos riders seem to do their crashing in the neutralised zone!
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,912

    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:



    There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

    But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.
    Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.
    Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.
    Cricket and NFL. Two sports recently wrestling with concussion problems.
    Add on ice hockey. As I said, not many.
    And they are all stop/start with natural breaks for assessment.

    One possible option for cycling, neutralise the stage following a crash. Practical?
    Not really. Ineos riders seem to do their crashing in the neutralised zone!
    😂😂😂
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,070
    Doesn't it come back to Rick's point - before looking for solutions shouldn't we determine if there is an actual problem with concussed riders carrying on and sustaining a repeat head injury ?

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • andyracandyrac Posts: 818

    In order to feign injury you need to crash. I really can't see riders volunteering for that. Plus, most riders don't crash uphill and even now if you require treatment, you can hang onto the doctor's car, so it's not that much different.

    It's surely not beyond the wit of people in cycling to come up with a procedure? And, yes, there is the problem of any solution being abused. As ever, cycling is too bound by tradition.

    However, after a crash they could perform a check - if you're not okay, then you're out of the race. If you're fine they have a number of choices;
    (i) allow the rider to come home in their own time - credited with the time of the peloton. (Easier on a flat/sprint stage)
    (ii) And/or - (on a mountain top finish), they receive a time formulated to the the rider directly ahead & behind them in GC standings.

    There will be other solutions, surely; it just requires a bit of 'outside thinking' - and dropping the traditional way of thinking.


    All Road/ Gravel: Trek Crockett 5
    WInter: Trek Domane ALR3
    MTB: Canyon Grand Canyon 8.0
    Road: tbc
  • You cant just give a rider an arbitrary time. The whole point of cycling up mountains is that it tires you out and tests your fitness. Some riders do better up steeper mountains, others better on longer mountains.

    You have opened your mind so much your brain has fallen out.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 62,410 Lives Here
    edited December 2020
    I do think badly placed road furniture and certain roads are more of a problem than head stuff.

    There’s a corner in Lombardi where every year
    there is a serious accident - one that really ruined Bakelants’ end of career.

    Still goes down that road.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 62,410 Lives Here
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,509

    I do think badly placed road furniture and certain roads are more of a problem than head stuff.

    There’s a corner in Lombardi where every year
    there is a serious accident - one that really ruined Bakelants’ end of career.

    Still goes down that road.

    Yeah we have more serious issues in cycling than concussions but none of them seem to get addressed either, so it seems a bit moot
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,835
    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    RichN95. said:



    There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

    But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.
    Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.
    Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.
    Cricket and NFL. Two sports recently wrestling with concussion problems.
    Add on ice hockey. As I said, not many.
    And they are all stop/start with natural breaks for assessment.

    One possible option for cycling, neutralise the stage following a crash. Practical?
    Horse racing. I think they get assessed and aren't allowed to ride for a certain time if they fail.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,070
    A stage race would be all about staying upright.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,293

    A stage race would be all about staying upright.


    Valverde, a rider I can't remember ever crashing, would win them all at age of 40.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 5,236
    RichN95. said:

    A stage race would be all about staying upright.


    Valverde, a rider I can't remember ever crashing, would win them all at age of 40.
    Do you not remember his crash in the TdF TT in 2019(?)
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,293

    RichN95. said:

    A stage race would be all about staying upright.


    Valverde, a rider I can't remember ever crashing, would win them all at age of 40.
    Do you not remember his crash in the TdF TT in 2019(?)

    Now you mention it, yes. I thought it would end his career, which shows how much I know. World Champion the next year.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,501

    How many retired pros have concussion related problems?

    doesn't ring any alarms for me in cycling
    a lot of heart issues
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,501
    maybe you could have a limited number of incident related timeouts?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95. said:

    A stage race would be all about staying upright.


    Valverde, a rider I can't remember ever crashing, would win them all at age of 40.
    Do you not remember his crash in the TdF TT in 2019(?)
    2017 Prologue / TT. Geraint took the Yellow, ironically, after crashing out the Giro. Before crashing out the TDF.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 62,410 Lives Here

    How many retired pros have concussion related problems?

    doesn't ring any alarms for me in cycling
    a lot of heart issues
    Doping?
  • lpd2lpd2 Posts: 9
    edited December 2020
    My (probably bad) idea is that every rider must have an accelerometer with telemetry inside their helmet, if it goes above a certain value in a crash they must report to Dr for check up, with a tow back to the peleton after.
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55352368

    Trial for allowing concussion subs in Football
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,293
    lpd2 said:

    My (probably bad) idea is that every rider must have an accelerometer with telemetry inside their helmet, if it goes above a certain value in a crash they must report to Dr for check up, with a tow back to the peleton after.


    I mentioned something similar on the previous page
    RichN95. said:



    Maybe a system of impact monitors/accelerometers on helmets monitors can flag riders for independent monitoring and full assessment at the end of the race if nothing seems obviously untoward.

    Twitter: @RichN95
  • I've got a far better idea.
    Why not just ban all sports that might result in any kind of injury.
    Perhaps then we could worry about people dying from morbid obesity as they spend all day sat on their fat arses doing sweet F.A.
    Everything has a risk attached to it from competing in sport to hanging out the washing.
    Where exactly do we draw the line at in this "I want compensation for doing something that enhanced my overall life" b*llshit?
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 5,430
    edited December 2020
    What a stupid comment

    Where risk of long term injury can be reasonably avoided, why not take measures to do so?

    On the other hand (not the way I'd like to take a stand) if you deliberately avoid taking steps you open yourself up to lawsuits.

    Also professional sport is about entertainment and advertising. If you think it's worth suffering life changing injuries over because of the hassle of a bit of red tape I'd say that's a pretty selfish point of view.
  • Of course it was a stupid comment.
    If we mitigate every chance of getting a head injury, or any other for that matter out of sport, what exactly are we left with?
    Get rid of heading and tackling in football? What's left won't be very entertaining.
    Bowling in cricket to revert to underarm to negate the odd chance of a beamer? Stop fielders throwing the ball in case it hits someone. Better yet, stop fielders from catching the ball in case they miss it and it strikes a mortal blow?
    A man carrying a red flag in front of cyclists to ensure they don't exceed 5mph, therefore vastly reducing the chances of falling off?

    Where do we stop?
  • If a sport like rugby sees significant numbers of its professionals suffering life-affecting injuries from repeated impacts then the sport will simply end up disappearing - who would want to play it at an amateur level, or to allow their children to play? If it wants to survive it needs to take this very seriously and start doing something about it. A sport nobody plays isn't going to get anyone's backside off the couch.

    Cycling's somewhat different in that repeated smaller collisions are not (Geraint Thomas apart) a regular part of the sport. There's an important discussion to be had about how to deal with concussions - as there are in all sports - but the rugby case that prompted this thread isn't about that sort of head injury but about repeated impacts that wouldn't trigger an HIA. Football has exactly the same issue to face when it comes to heading the ball - it wouldn't surprise me to see heading disappearing in the same way that hacking and the fair catch did, neither of which seem to have suddenly caused a mass exodus towards couchdom...
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,848
    Cargobike said:

    Of course it was a stupid comment.
    If we mitigate every chance of getting a head injury, or any other for that matter out of sport, what exactly are we left with?
    Get rid of heading and tackling in football? What's left won't be very entertaining.
    Bowling in cricket to revert to underarm to negate the odd chance of a beamer? Stop fielders throwing the ball in case it hits someone. Better yet, stop fielders from catching the ball in case they miss it and it strikes a mortal blow?
    A man carrying a red flag in front of cyclists to ensure they don't exceed 5mph, therefore vastly reducing the chances of falling off?

    Where do we stop?

    Sounds like you've confused mitigation with elimination, tbh. Plenty of risks in sport have already been mitigated to some extent - the halo in F1 is an example, the cricket rules re setting a field for bouncers is another, bike helmets a third.

    We stop where we think we've sufficiently mitigated the risk.

    The issue with concussion is that it's only fairly recently that the link between concussions in sport (notably American football and rugby) and early onset dementia has been made. For most of those playing it was an unknown risk up until then.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Who said every injury?

    You are deliberately being obtuse.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,912
    If somebody doesn't realise the potential danger of playing rugby or participating in cycle races then I'd question their ability to assess danger.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,835
    Cargobike said:

    I've got a far better idea.
    Why not just ban all sports that might result in any kind of injury.
    Perhaps then we could worry about people dying from morbid obesity as they spend all day sat on their fat arses doing sweet F.A.
    Everything has a risk attached to it from competing in sport to hanging out the washing.
    Where exactly do we draw the line at in this "I want compensation for doing something that enhanced my overall life" b*llshit?

    I think you've missed the point. The discussion is about the duty of care governing bodies have to those taking part in a sport especially in the light of the claim being made in rugby.

    Do you think skiing should do away with netting? Get ride of tyre walls in motor racing? Prevent a referee in boxing from stopping a fight if the guy getting battered wants to keep going?
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