Head Injuries

shirley_basso

salsiccia1 said:

Harsh. Our Bianchi-loving friend is making a good, and actually quite poignant point.

True. I'd add the changes he suggests may come in are very much on their way, not just a "may change"

I added a like

DeVlaeminck

TheBigBean said:

In order to feign injury you need to crash. I really can't see riders volunteering for that. Plus, most riders don't crash uphill and even now if you require treatment, you can hang onto the doctor's car, so it's not that much different.

Obviously once they've crashed - if the bike is damaged and it takes a few minutes to get a spare and maybe you are still a little shaken up - you have the choice of a chase back or a ride in an ambulance for 15 minutes.

The uphill bit wasn't mentioned by me so ?

You can't hang on to a doctor's car back to the bunch after a crash so it's quite a bit different.

And if you crash out of a break do you get a lift back to the break.

It's a nice idea in principle but I suspect problemat in practice.

shirley_basso

UCI have made some announcements

https://www.uci.org/inside-uci/press-releases/road-cycling-the-uci-announces-the-introduction-of-numerous-measures-to-improve-rider-safety-as-of-2021

DeVlaeminck

Interesting, the end of sitting on the top tube on descents? If so I can't say I'll miss it.

bobmcstuff

How many crashes have actually been caused by top tube descending? I'm not sure I can remember any.

yorkshireraw

TheBigBean said:

In order to feign injury you need to crash. I really can't see riders volunteering for that. Plus, most riders don't crash uphill and even now if you require treatment, you can hang onto the doctor's car, so it's not that much different.

It was more that if you were in a crash and saw the Peloton disappearing up the road, there might be a temptation to say you would like an HIA to be sure of no problems. Let's be honest, pro-cyclists bend a lot of rules on occasions so having it as an option might tempt some.
Also, not about crashing once climbing, but there's a lot of fighting for position heading to the bottom of critical climbs.

yorkshireraw

shirley_basso said:

UCI have made some announcements

https://www.uci.org/inside-uci/press-releases/road-cycling-the-uci-announces-the-introduction-of-numerous-measures-to-improve-rider-safety-as-of-2021

Does sound like they are finally going to make organisers (such as Tour of Poland) take proper assessments and measures esp. at finishes.

This is good new on paper - the proof will be them actually backing it up and dealing properly with any instance when the rules / processes aren't followed.

rick_chasey

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

yorkshireraw

rick_chasey said:

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

I think it's a different issue - long term effects of head contact in training & competition in some sports vs. the fact you can't pull someone off the field for 15 minutes HIA and give them the all clear to re-enter in cycling, so riders try and do silly things.
A player with an active concussion playing on in Rugby / Football will generally be a risk to themselves for a max of 80-90 minutes and won't be playing again the next day (not saying they should be out there at all BTW).
Different for a rider in the middle of a 200 man bunch doing 5 hours today at 40kmh and the same again tomorrow.

RichN95.

rick_chasey said:

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

I think Ian Boswell had problems and a factor in his retirement. But I don't think there's above average amounts of dementia in retired riders.

yorkshireraw

RichN95. said:

rick_chasey said:

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

I think Ian Boswell had problems. But I don't think there's above average amounts of dementia.

A lot of the generation who might have developed dementia died early from the effects of PED use..... (bad joke, but maybe not)

Also, the sample size of Pro Cyclists (names who we are likely to hear about having issue) vs. pro footballers or Rugby players must be a lot smaller. The English Premier League (Football) alone will have more players than the entire number of riders on WT Teams (probably?)

RichN95.

yorkshireraw said:

I think Ian Boswell had problems. But I don't think there's above average amounts of dementia.

A lot of the generation who might have developed dementia died early from the effects of PED use..... (bad joke, but maybe not)

Also, the sample size of Pro Cyclists (names who we are likely to hear about having issue) vs. pro footballers or Rugby players must be a lot smaller. The English Premier League (Football) alone will have more players than the entire number of riders on WT Teams (probably?)


There are also probably more crashes these days, but also better helmets

yorkshireraw

Good point

rick_chasey

RichN95. said:

rick_chasey said:

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

I think Ian Boswell had problems and a factor in his retirement. But I don't think there's above average amounts of dementia in retired riders.

Sure but surely in his instance the concussion was recognised, hence the retirement?

rick_chasey

TBH cycling has plenty bigger problems with badly designed finishes, dodgy infrastructure etc than it does with head injuries.

TheBigBean

I struggle with the argument that head injuries in cycling are not a problem when cyclists have died of head injuries. There is a difference in football/rugby where they are talking about continual minor damage, but there is still the well established idea that someone with concussion should not risk another impact to the head I.e. they shouldn't be racing a bike.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

I struggle with the argument that head injuries in cycling are not a problem when cyclists have died of head injuries. There is a difference in football/rugby where they are talking about continual minor damage, but there is still the well established idea that someone with concussion should not risk another impact to the head I.e. they shouldn't be racing a bike.

That's a different coversation, though. This one is about concussion protocols and long term damage

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

I struggle with the argument that head injuries in cycling are not a problem when cyclists have died of head injuries. There is a difference in football/rugby where they are talking about continual minor damage, but there is still the well established idea that someone with concussion should not risk another impact to the head I.e. they shouldn't be racing a bike.

That's a different coversation, though. This one is about concussion protocols and long term damage

Same thing surely. You assess whether the rider is concussed. If they are, they are out of the race.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

I struggle with the argument that head injuries in cycling are not a problem when cyclists have died of head injuries. There is a difference in football/rugby where they are talking about continual minor damage, but there is still the well established idea that someone with concussion should not risk another impact to the head I.e. they shouldn't be racing a bike.

That's a different conversation, though. This one is about concussion protocols and long term damage

Same thing surely. You assess whether the rider is concussed. If they are, they are out of the race.

Not really. The question is who should be assessed in the case of a big crash, how to assess them, how long it will take and provisions for return to the race if OK.

No-one assessed whether Wouter Weylandt and Bjorg Lambrecht were OK to ride on.

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

I struggle with the argument that head injuries in cycling are not a problem when cyclists have died of head injuries. There is a difference in football/rugby where they are talking about continual minor damage, but there is still the well established idea that someone with concussion should not risk another impact to the head I.e. they shouldn't be racing a bike.

That's a different conversation, though. This one is about concussion protocols and long term damage

Same thing surely. You assess whether the rider is concussed. If they are, they are out of the race.

Not really. The question is who should be assessed in the case of a big crash, how to assess them, how long it will take and provisions for return to the race if OK.

No-one assessed whether Wouter Weylandt and Bjorg Lambrecht were OK to ride on.

Yes, I made a proposal how to do this upthread. My point was that if riders have died of head injuries then there are probably quite a few head injuries that don't result in death, so it is a problem in cycling.

Cricket has a concussion protocol after one player died.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

Yes, I made a proposal how to do this upthread. My point was that if riders have died of head injuries then there are probably quite a few head injuries that don't result in death, so it is a problem in cycling.

Cricket has a concussion protocol after one player died.

And Phil Hughes was knocked out and never regained consciousness. It wasn't a borderline case. And cricket stops and starts as part of the game. And even then they the get decisions wrong.

As far as I know no-one has died on a rugby or football pitch due to a bang on the head. It's all about longer term damage.

Cycling can do all of the protocols, but it doesn't fit into the format of the sport. Do you stop every time there's a crash, or do you just sacrifice a GT contender's chance if they crash just on the off chance.

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

Yes, I made a proposal how to do this upthread. My point was that if riders have died of head injuries then there are probably quite a few head injuries that don't result in death, so it is a problem in cycling.

Cricket has a concussion protocol after one player died.

And Phil Hughes was knocked out and never regained consciousness. It wasn't a borderline case. And cricket stops and starts as part of the game. And even then they the get decisions wrong.

As far as I know no-one has died on a rugby or football pitch due to a bang on the head. It's all about longer term damage.

Cycling can do all of the protocols, but it doesn't fit into the format of the sport. Do you stop every time there's a crash, or do you just sacrifice a GT contender's chance if they crash just on the off chance.

I proposed upthread, they sit in an assessment van for 15 mins moving at race speed. No one else agreed.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

I proposed upthread, they sit in an assessment van for 15 mins moving at race speed. No one else agreed.

And when there's a thirty rider pile up?

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

I proposed upthread, they sit in an assessment van for 15 mins moving at race speed. No one else agreed.

And when there's a thirty rider pile up?

There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

Cricket also changed to introduce the concept of a concussion sub.

Cycling can change, and no doubt will change, but for now everyone will keep making excuses.

I think it is far easier for cycling to deal with concussion protocols than it is for football to stop people heading the ball.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.

Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.

Of course, some riders might pretend they hit their heads just to sit in a van and have a rest for 15 mins. Perhaps then you can have the video replay and DQ them if they are telling complete porkies.

pblakeney

TheBigBean said:

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

There's usually a limited number with injuries of any note.

But concussion is often difficult to spot. Some can bang their head and get straight back on their bike again. Everyone who touches the ground with anything other than their foot must be checked or there is no protocol. And you will have to stop the race to check the video replays to find out who that was.

Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.

Not many sports already have mandatory helmets.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

Other sports have protocols. Perhaps they don't catch all cases, but they are surely better than nothing, and not everyone who falls over in a game of rugby is checked, so I think you are being a bit ridiculous to suggest it is every rider who puts a foot down.

Of course, some riders might pretend they hit their heads just to sit in a van and have a rest for 15 mins. Perhaps then you can have the video replay and DQ them if they are telling complete porkies.

I specifically said 'touch the ground with anything other than their foot'. Other sports stop and start all the time. They have substitutions. Their format allows for it. Only a year ago Eusebio Unzue floated the idea of substitutions in GTs, which I thought was an idea with merit, but was met ridicule.

There have been incidents in the last decade of riders continuing when clearly concussed. They used to be praised for it by some (Horner 2011). That has improved and can be improved more.

Maybe a system of impact monitors/accelerometers on helmets monitors can flag riders for independent monitoring and full assessment at the end of the race if nothing seems obviously untoward.

But more generally this has yet to manifest itself as a problem in cycling (any more than general cycling). It's a potential issue. But there seems to be a eagerness within cycling media and some followers to import scandals from other sports.

RichN95.

Angelo Ogbonna needs to be checked after that immense header

DeVlaeminck

rick_chasey said:

Is it actually a problem in cycling?

I asked upthread how many retired pros have concussion related problems?

I was going to ask the same but anticipated flak for doing so and didn't feel like arguing. Obviously head injuries in cycling are real but damage from riding on and crashing again with a concussion ...?