La Vuelta 2020 - Stage 16: Salamanca > Ciudad Rodrigo - 162 km *Spoilers*

pblakeney

RichN95. said:

Roglic has been the dominant figure (one TT aside) this season from start to finish, but I don't think he's ever been at the front before the flamme rouge at any time.

No argument. Don't see why he would want to though as he has such a strong team.
The opposition need to either be stronger, break his team, or do a "Froome".

alan_a

jam1e said:

That's the other thing - I've pretty much stopped watching now, nothing's really going to change.

snap

RichN95.

"We see that after the last count Roglic's lead has increased. But 100% of stage 16 has not reported yet and there are pathways for both Carthy and Carapaz to the Red Jersey.

Breaking news: Lawyers for Carapaz and Carthy have submitted suits alleging timing irregularities on stage 10"

alan_a

RichN95. said:

"We see that after the last count Roglic's lead has increased. But 100% of stage 16 has not reported yet and there are pathways for both Carthy and Carapaz to the Red Jersey.

Breaking news: Lawyers for Carapaz and Carthy have submitted suits alleging timing irregularities on stage 10"

kingstongraham

RichN95. said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't get why it would be so much more exciting if there was no race between the GC contenders at the end of stages.

But there would still be a race for the stage. A stage is still valuable. But with time bonuses, for a superior sprinter amongst the GC guys, when GTs are often decided by less than a minutes, the easiest way to get an advantage is wait for the sprint.

Easier said than done, but a strong team can make it happen repeatedly. And it's not the most inspiring use of such a team.

Roglic has been the dominant figure (one TT aside) this season from start to finish, but I don't think he's ever been at the front before the flamme rouge at any time.

True. Turns every stage into a flat sprint stage.

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't get why it would be so much more exciting if there was no race between the GC contenders at the end of stages.

But there would still be a race for the stage. A stage is still valuable. But with time bonuses, for a superior sprinter amongst the GC guys, when GTs are often decided by less than a minutes, the easiest way to get an advantage is wait for the sprint.

Easier said than done, but a strong team can make it happen repeatedly. And it's not the most inspiring use of such a team.

Roglic has been the dominant figure (one TT aside) this season from start to finish, but I don't think he's ever been at the front before the flamme rouge at any time.

Without the time bonuses, the stages used to get gifted and there would be no action from the GC bunch at the end. I miss the stage gifting bit, but happy for the time encouragement to get the GC riders competing.

Plenty of riders have won GTs without winning a stage. Some never hit the front and won it in TTs alone. Roglic is a long way from being the most boring. In particular, I quite like that he is not the strongest climber, so it is for others to take advantage of this. The most boring GTs are when the same rider is best TTer and the best climber.

gsk82

TheBigBean said:

RichN95. said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't get why it would be so much more exciting if there was no race between the GC contenders at the end of stages.

But there would still be a race for the stage. A stage is still valuable. But with time bonuses, for a superior sprinter amongst the GC guys, when GTs are often decided by less than a minutes, the easiest way to get an advantage is wait for the sprint.

Easier said than done, but a strong team can make it happen repeatedly. And it's not the most inspiring use of such a team.

Roglic has been the dominant figure (one TT aside) this season from start to finish, but I don't think he's ever been at the front before the flamme rouge at any time.

Without the time bonuses, the stages used to get gifted and there would be no action from the GC bunch at the end. I miss the stage gifting bit, but happy for the time encouragement to get the GC riders competing.

Plenty of riders have won GTs without winning a stage. Some never hit the front and won it in TTs alone. Roglic is a long way from being the most boring. In particular, I quite like that he is not the strongest climber, so it is for others to take advantage of this. The most boring GTs are when the same rider is best TTer and the best climber.

He is the climber. And the best TTer. And he's picking up bonuses in reduced group sprints.

Time bonuses just mean that the the punchiest climber doesn't have a go with 500 metres to. It's safer to wait till 50 metres to go for the same reward.

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

Plenty of riders have won GTs without winning a stage. Some never hit the front and won it in TTs alone. Roglic is a long way from being the most boring. In particular, I quite like that he is not the strongest climber, so it is for others to take advantage of this. The most boring GTs are when the same rider is best TTer and the best climber.

But he has the strongest team. And they are trying to reduce Grand Tours to a series of reduced bunch sprints. Generally successfully.

pblakeney

gsk82 said:

TheBigBean said:

RichN95. said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't get why it would be so much more exciting if there was no race between the GC contenders at the end of stages.

But there would still be a race for the stage. A stage is still valuable. But with time bonuses, for a superior sprinter amongst the GC guys, when GTs are often decided by less than a minutes, the easiest way to get an advantage is wait for the sprint.

Easier said than done, but a strong team can make it happen repeatedly. And it's not the most inspiring use of such a team.

Roglic has been the dominant figure (one TT aside) this season from start to finish, but I don't think he's ever been at the front before the flamme rouge at any time.

Without the time bonuses, the stages used to get gifted and there would be no action from the GC bunch at the end. I miss the stage gifting bit, but happy for the time encouragement to get the GC riders competing.

Plenty of riders have won GTs without winning a stage. Some never hit the front and won it in TTs alone. Roglic is a long way from being the most boring. In particular, I quite like that he is not the strongest climber, so it is for others to take advantage of this. The most boring GTs are when the same rider is best TTer and the best climber.

He is the climber. And the best TTer. And he's picking up bonuses in reduced group sprints.

Time bonuses just mean that the the punchiest climber doesn't have a go with 500 metres to. It's safer to wait till 50 metres to go for the same reward.

If somebody thought they could, then they would, but they don't.
The alternative is that they know they'll lose the sprint so why bother racing at all.

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

Plenty of riders have won GTs without winning a stage. Some never hit the front and won it in TTs alone. Roglic is a long way from being the most boring. In particular, I quite like that he is not the strongest climber, so it is for others to take advantage of this. The most boring GTs are when the same rider is best TTer and the best climber.

But he has the strongest team. And they are trying to reduce Grand Tours to a series of reduced bunch sprints. Generally successfully.

Yes, strongest rider on the strongest team is quite dull, hence the complaints about Sky/Ineos. In this case, he has lost time on two(?) stages which is a decent showing for GC entertainment, and he still could, but probably won't, lose the race tomorrow.

It's not been the best year, but it is mostly the lack of decent competition that is problem. I feel like most of the top ten are happy to be top 10 and are not going to go all out to win in the way that Froome and Contador did when riding the Vuelta.

blazing_saddles

RichN95. said:

Harry182 said:

jam1e said:

gsk82 said:

I wish he'd just f*** off.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything but I agree completely with that statement. He's so f***ing predictable.

I agree it's painfully tedious but can't blame the guy. As the kids say - "don't hate the player; hate the game".

It's also amusing to see the people (from other places) that derided Sky for being boring trying to convince themselves that this is new exciting racing.

Indeed, 'tis quite amusing.

I'd say Jumbo have even gone one better with normally holding Sepp Kuss in reserve. Sky would usually use Porte or Thomas the crank up the volume, before Froome attacked.
Kuss's job is to keep the cattle in the herd, so that Roglic can hit the 500 metre afterburners for a couple of seconds on the road and those all important bonus seconds.

My guess is the novelty will start to wear off during next year's Tour, especially if Tom Dumoulin hits good form as well.......or maybe Kruijswijk.......or maybe....

shirley_basso

Keep the cattle in the herd.

Hahahaha

salsiccia1

blazing_saddles said:

RichN95. said:

Harry182 said:

jam1e said:

gsk82 said:

I wish he'd just f*** off.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything but I agree completely with that statement. He's so f***ing predictable.

I agree it's painfully tedious but can't blame the guy. As the kids say - "don't hate the player; hate the game".

It's also amusing to see the people (from other places) that derided Sky for being boring trying to convince themselves that this is new exciting racing.

Indeed, 'tis quite amusing.

I'd say Jumbo have even gone one better with normally holding Sepp Kuss in reserve. Sky would usually use Porte or Thomas the crank up the volume, before Froome attacked.
Kuss's job is to keep the cattle in the herd, so that Roglic can hit the 500 metre afterburners for a couple of seconds on the road and those all important bonus seconds.

My guess is the novelty will start to wear off during next year's Tour, especially if Tom Dumoulin hits good form as well.......or maybe Kruijswijk.......or maybe....

Agreed. Jumbo have distilled GT racing down to perfection: have the strongest team deliver the leader to the finish line to administer the coup de grace at minimum risk, with no need for actual attacks. It's the logical progression from Sky's tactics, aided and abetted by bonus seconds.

If there's got to be bonus seconds I'd prefer them only on flat and lumpy stages, incentivising GC riders to race on the non-mountainous stages but making them actually have to attack on the last climb of the mountainous stages.

gsk82

salsiccia1 said:

blazing_saddles said:

RichN95. said:

Harry182 said:

jam1e said:

gsk82 said:

I wish he'd just f*** off.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything but I agree completely with that statement. He's so f***ing predictable.

I agree it's painfully tedious but can't blame the guy. As the kids say - "don't hate the player; hate the game".

It's also amusing to see the people (from other places) that derided Sky for being boring trying to convince themselves that this is new exciting racing.

Indeed, 'tis quite amusing.

I'd say Jumbo have even gone one better with normally holding Sepp Kuss in reserve. Sky would usually use Porte or Thomas the crank up the volume, before Froome attacked.
Kuss's job is to keep the cattle in the herd, so that Roglic can hit the 500 metre afterburners for a couple of seconds on the road and those all important bonus seconds.

My guess is the novelty will start to wear off during next year's Tour, especially if Tom Dumoulin hits good form as well.......or maybe Kruijswijk.......or maybe....

Agreed. Jumbo have distilled GT racing down to perfection: have the strongest team deliver the leader to the finish line to administer the coup de grace at minimum risk, with no need for actual attacks. It's the logical progression from Sky's tactics, aided and abetted by bonus seconds.

If there's got to be bonus seconds I'd prefer them only on flat and lumpy stages, incentivising GC riders to race on the non-mountainous stages but making them actually have to attack on the last climb of the mountainous stages.

It's perfect, until someone kicks your arse in the closing TT.

pblakeney

gsk82 said:

salsiccia1 said:

blazing_saddles said:

RichN95. said:

Harry182 said:

jam1e said:

gsk82 said:

I wish he'd just f*** off.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything but I agree completely with that statement. He's so f***ing predictable.

I agree it's painfully tedious but can't blame the guy. As the kids say - "don't hate the player; hate the game".

It's also amusing to see the people (from other places) that derided Sky for being boring trying to convince themselves that this is new exciting racing.

Indeed, 'tis quite amusing.

I'd say Jumbo have even gone one better with normally holding Sepp Kuss in reserve. Sky would usually use Porte or Thomas the crank up the volume, before Froome attacked.
Kuss's job is to keep the cattle in the herd, so that Roglic can hit the 500 metre afterburners for a couple of seconds on the road and those all important bonus seconds.

My guess is the novelty will start to wear off during next year's Tour, especially if Tom Dumoulin hits good form as well.......or maybe Kruijswijk.......or maybe....

Agreed. Jumbo have distilled GT racing down to perfection: have the strongest team deliver the leader to the finish line to administer the coup de grace at minimum risk, with no need for actual attacks. It's the logical progression from Sky's tactics, aided and abetted by bonus seconds.

If there's got to be bonus seconds I'd prefer them only on flat and lumpy stages, incentivising GC riders to race on the non-mountainous stages but making them actually have to attack on the last climb of the mountainous stages.

It's perfect, until someone kicks your censored in the closing TT.

It's still perfect if you have the best TT in the race.
I totally agree that is is not the best viewing but Roglic winning is not Roglic's problem. The opposition have to do better.

Pross

I've got no issue with Roglic playing to his strengths, he'd be stupid not to, but if the purpose of time bonuses is to make racing more interesting it has failed miserably. Today would make for some racing if it hadn't been for the time bonuses and that stupid rule change in the one stage. Maybe it still will if we're lucky though, the days of GTs being won by minutes seems long gone.

alan_a