Electronic gear shifting, Di2 et al.

shortfall

50x11 said:

yellowv2 said:

And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.

But it's measurably better: more efficient, needs less maintenance, and more user friendly and customisable.

Just because "not everyone" (you) think it isn't better doesn't make it so.

This may be true, I'll take your word on it, but part of the enjoyment of riding a motorbike or a car is being skilled at timing the gearshift, blipping the throttle and matching the revs on the downshift. It's just more involving than having a computer do it all for you even if the latter is fractionally faster and more fuel efficient. Same with setting up and maintainIng the gears on the bike and being good at shifting smoothly under load without crunching the gears. It's all part and parcel of the enjoyment and ownership of biking. I'm happy for those of you who prefer electronic gadgets but as far as I'm concerned it's only "better"if it's better for you.

To put it another way, you can buy an electric violin, set it up perfectly with an electronic tuning device, plug it into an amp and in theory make pitch perfect music, but will it sound better than a Stradivarius and which would any violinist worth his salt own? Would you rather watch Lewis Hamilton pilot his Mercedes with an army of technicians making half the decisions in the pitlane and the car itself doing most of the driving, or would you prefer to watch Ayrton Senna heel and toe his Maclaren Honda round Monaco, changing the gears himself, keeping the turbo spinning, controlling the wheelspin and fighting the brutal acceleration with his own skill rather than a computer sorting it all out for him with rev limiters, launch control and anti wheelspin electronics?

Anyways, I'm on holiday and I've been drinking, I reservethe right to delete this in the morning if it's all bo11ocks ,😀

yellowv2

shortfall said:

50x11 said:

yellowv2 said:

And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.

But it's measurably better: more efficient, needs less maintenance, and more user friendly and customisable.

Just because "not everyone" (you) think it isn't better doesn't make it so.

This may be true, I'll take your word on it, but part of the enjoyment of riding a motorbike or a car is being skilled at timing the gearshift, blipping the throttle and matching the revs on the downshift. It's just more involving than having a computer do it all for you even if the latter is fractionally faster and more fuel efficient. Same with setting up and maintainIng the gears on the bike and being good at shifting smoothly under load without crunching the gears. It's all part and parcel of the enjoyment and ownership of biking. I'm happy for those of you who prefer electronic gadgets but as far as I'm concerned it's only "better"if it's better for you.

To put it another way, you can buy an electric violin, set it up perfectly with an electronic tuning device, plug it into an amp and in theory make pitch perfect music, but will it sound better than a Stradivarius and which would any violinist worth his salt own? Would you rather watch Lewis Hamilton pilot his Mercedes with an army of technicians making half the decisions in the pitlane and the car itself doing most of the driving, or would you prefer to watch Ayrton Senna heel and toe his Maclaren Honda round Monaco, changing the gears himself, keeping the turbo spinning, controlling the wheelspin and fighting the brutal acceleration with his own skill rather than a computer sorting it all out for him with rev limiters, launch control and anti wheelspin electronics?

Anyways, I'm on holiday and I've been drinking, I reservethe right to delete this in the morning if it's all bo11ocks ,😀

No, it’s absolute Gold!

StillGoing

First.Aspect said:

StillGoing said:

First.Aspect said:

FreddieVonRost said:

Flappy paddle makes sense.

Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?

Flappy paddle doesn't make sense if your car is a diesel...

Damn does with a 3.0 V6 Tdi Touareg, with 245bhp and 600nm of torque.

Its nothing to do with the power or number of cylinders. I just find myself staring at the rev counter to see whether I'm about to stall or about to hit the red line. I can't tell otherwise - flat torque curve and a noise like hitting a pan with a spoon, just different volumes.

Quicker gear changes than synchro shift in sport mode on the auto box.

zest28

Because it is simply much better than mechanical shifting.
1. Shifting is always perfect and never needs adjusting
2. It is easier, just a tap on one of the buttons.
3. Automatic shifting (the front gear automatically shifts. So who needs a 1X gear at the front with Di2)
4. Sequential shifting, just keep the button pressed and it keep shifting down untill you release it
5. It is faster.
6. With Di2, you do not need to trim.

Battery with Di2 is not a problem at all. The only time I had no battery left was when the winter over and I switched from my winter bike (mechanical Ultegra) to my main bike (Dura Ace Di2).

I would only go for mechanical if it is a budget build (commuting bike, winter bike, ....). Di2 doesn’t make you faster but it is a nice quality of life upgrade for your main bike.

thegreatdivide

zest28 said:

4. Sequential shifting, just keep the button pressed and it keep shifting down untill you release it

That's not sequential shifting - that's keeping your finger on a lever to make the rear mech go up and down the block. Sequential shifting is when you're moving up/down the block and the front mech drops/lifts the chain into the small/big ring.

teisetrotter

I have both Di2 and Chorus12 mechanical. It's interesting the difference:

1. Speed - Chorus is quicker for multiple shifts. You have 5 up, 3 down and they can be instant as required
2. Synchro - You can set it up in Di2. But it is there permanently and with mechanical I can change the rear and front mech at the same time and then choose whether I have no, one or two gear ratio changes
3. Synchro - The automated change of the front mech is a great function. But there is a slight lag between the front and rear mech so you don't get the smooth seamless transition
4. Indexing - I haven't had indexing issues on the Chorus, but it will happen and Di2 does stop this. But really, it is only a barrel twist every couple of months.
5. Tapping buttons - The Chorus changes on the thumb change is easier than the Di2 paddle now that it is larger and better placed. The Chorus lever changes as you move it, so it is not as easy as Di2. But it is not the crap full fling of the manual system to get one change that is Ultegra mechanical.

So I'd say Di2 is a great upgrade to Ultegra which is the industries most backward levers. But if I can get something which is mostly slightly better and not electric, then I'll do it and that selection is Chorus. I bought Chorus for a nice Italian build ...... now it's going to replace Di2. It's faster, a better rear/front mech synch and offers more flexibility.

thegreatdivide

Although - if you want all the best bit of Chorus and the best bits of Di2 - try EPS.

paulbox

There are quite a few good responses already on this thread, but the thing that jumps out to me is that most people seem to like what they have and not quite like the other stuff as much. I’ve noticed on my club Facebook page that some people just have to bad mouth gear that they don’t own based upon a little bit of hearsay and negative comment that they have read elsewhere.

My hopefully impartial input based upon owning 4 road bikes with 4 different setups. I have Dura-ace di2 (current version) SRAM Red etap (original 11speed), Ultegra manual ( current version)and Campagnolo manual (ultegra equiv or slightly lower, can’t remember what it’s called). They all work well, do the job that they are designed to do and I enjoy using them all.

Batteries aren’t an issue unless you are a bit of a moron. They don’t take long to charge and need to be charged very rarely.

Sometimes it is just nice to be using manual gears. I don’t know why, just feels a bit more ‘back to nature’ or something. But if I could only have one bike, it would have electronic shifting.

If I could only have one set of electronic gears I think I would go for the SRAM stuff. I just like how simple and clean it is in terms of being wireless. Although the current di2 having no junction box under the stem is an improvement, you still know that there are wires running along the inside of your frame.

There isn’t much difference re operation between the SRAM & di2. Both work very well. I think the front mech on the di2 trims better when moving through the cassette, but the buttons on the SRAM are simpler to use. That might just be because I haven’t had the di2 very long, it still seems better having only one “paddle” on each side for my little brain to deal with. If you have a power source where you store your bike it’s not an issue, but if you don’t, having the SRAM batteries detach from the mechs so easily will make them easier for charging away from the bike.

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

StillGoing

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

First.Aspect

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

I think I may have driven that gearbox on a diesel Passat in the states. Okay it was a rental that had probably been used to rob a bank and it wasn't flappy paddles, but I did notice that in the "manual" mode it changed gear very quickly some time after you asked it to.

paulbox

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

StillGoing

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

First.Aspect

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

See my comments above about banging a spoon against a pan.

It's nothing to do with being an advanced driver or not, because we all know when to change gear in a manual.

It is more that with the sorts of cars equipped with flappy paddles the sound proofing can be quite good, and that diesels inherently give less feedback about revs. Plus they rev much lower. Plus with modern 8 or 9 speeds you are forever changing gear. Plus the gearboxes on diesels are not set up to change particularly fast (a V6 tdi Troureg is merely relatively nippy for a 2.5ton SUV).

This all adds up to no point.

And in my experience it is distracting using the flappy paddles in a diesel, but for a petrol engine there's much less of a problem.

david37

brundonbianchi said:

50x11 said:

brundonbianchi said:

thegreatdivide said:

oxoman said:

The thought of a 13mile commute stuck in one gear fills me with dread.

It's not an issue. Just charge the battery before it runs out. Anyone who ends up with an empty battery deserves to ride home in one gear.

Except for one little problem. If the limit screws aren’t set correctly on Di2, the mech can ‘bump’ against a sprocket it can’t reach, continuously. And this will empty your battery quite nicely. Then you face a single speed Trek home.

Set your bike up correctly then. Pretty simple solution.

True, but it’s not as immediately obvious as it is with cables some times.

dont talk piffle. its very obvious.

captain_chaos

Through my company I am able to drive a number of premium products.

I always have a diesel for the economy and these days, because I am getting old and lazy, I now choose an automatic as I much prefer it. These all come with flappy paddle which I almost never use other than to flick up a gear sooner than it would anyway to make myself feel that the fuel economy might be 0.01mpg better. I also move the mode to "ECO" although I don't think that does anything either...

I never use the flappy paddles to actually "drive" the car - its an automatic - why have a dog and bark yourself? However I guess that enough customers think they want that ability that it is provided. After all its pretty cheap - few bits of plastic, switches and a bit of software

Just to counter the SUV haters (as that's what they tend to be) I drive carefully and normally get 40-45mpg per tank in mixed driving so an auto box is not necessarily the gas guzzler they used to be

I've got Di2 as well and its great to get back to the thread

paulbox

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

Lol, you don’t think that there’s a difference in engine note between a racing motorcycle and a merc diesel that red lines at about 5k?

What does that say about police driving...

teisetrotter

I have Ultegra Di2 and Chorus Mechanical. The Di2 is a dog compared to the Chorus in terms of gear change speed, especially multiple gear changes. I reckon I can do three gear changes on the Chorus before di2 in it's fastest setting has done one.

StillGoing

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

Lol, you don’t think that there’s a difference in engine note between a racing motorcycle and a merc diesel that red lines at about 5k?

What does that say about police driving...

Says everything about you that you can't tell when an engine is reaching peak revs whether it's petrol or diesel. A Touareg is VW and not Mercedes by the way. Same engine that is in the Q7 and Cayenne.

StillGoing

teisetrotter said:

I have Ultegra Di2 and Chorus Mechanical. The Di2 is a dog compared to the Chorus in terms of gear change speed, especially multiple gear changes. I reckon I can do three gear changes on the Chorus before di2 in it's fastest setting has done one.

Of course you can.

StillGoing

First.Aspect said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

See my comments above about banging a spoon against a pan.

It's nothing to do with being an advanced driver or not, because we all know when to change gear in a manual.

It is more that with the sorts of cars equipped with flappy paddles the sound proofing can be quite good, and that diesels inherently give less feedback about revs. Plus they rev much lower. Plus with modern 8 or 9 speeds you are forever changing gear. Plus the gearboxes on diesels are not set up to change particularly fast (a V6 tdi Troureg is merely relatively nippy for a 2.5ton SUV).

This all adds up to no point.

And in my experience it is distracting using the flappy paddles in a diesel, but for a petrol engine there's much less of a problem.

You keep the vehicle in the peak rev range and not labouring in a gear. You can hear an engine in any car if you don't have S Club 7 or the latest ramblings of Greta Thunberg blaring out.

paulbox

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

Lol, you don’t think that there’s a difference in engine note between a racing motorcycle and a merc diesel that red lines at about 5k?

What does that say about police driving...

Says everything about you that you can't tell when an engine is reaching peak revs whether it's petrol or diesel. A Touareg is VW and not Mercedes by the way. Same engine that is in the Q7 and Cayenne.

Police driver is arrogant twat shock...

I was talking about my motor, not a toerag.

First.Aspect

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

Lol, you don’t think that there’s a difference in engine note between a racing motorcycle and a merc diesel that red lines at about 5k?

What does that say about police driving...

Says everything about you that you can't tell when an engine is reaching peak revs whether it's petrol or diesel. A Touareg is VW and not Mercedes by the way. Same engine that is in the Q7 and Cayenne.

Police driver is arrogant censored shock...

I was talking about my motor, not a toerag.

Policeman in can't process simple information shocker.

No one has said that it isn't possible with a diesel, but that it is pointless. By pointless I mean there is no point, such as an actual advantage, to doing so.

You probably aren't used to actually having a dialogue with a member of the public.

Ben6899

Lads, Pistonheads ---->

FreddieVonRost

Laugh.

First.Aspect

I've got to be honest though, its just more interesting than Di2.

zest28

teisetrotter said:

I have Ultegra Di2 and Chorus Mechanical. The Di2 is a dog compared to the Chorus in terms of gear change speed, especially multiple gear changes. I reckon I can do three gear changes on the Chorus before di2 in it's fastest setting has done one.

So you're saying your chorus is better than my mechanical Ultegra that I have on my winter bike?

I highly doubt that.

steph79

I just got to try a bike with Ultegra Di2, it does work really well and I can definitely see the appeal.

That being said I also just ordered a new bike and it'll have Chorus mechanical like my last one. It's a little cheaper, hasn't given me issues and, as slick as the Di2 is, I like the mechanical shifting. My wife, who also tested Di2 would probably want that when she eventually gets a new bike. She loved it, and her point of comparison is the same as mine, Chorus.

So to each their own I guess.

paulbox

steph79 said:

So to each their own I guess.

Exactly.

teisetrotter

zest28 said:

teisetrotter said:

I have Ultegra Di2 and Chorus Mechanical. The Di2 is a dog compared to the Chorus in terms of gear change speed, especially multiple gear changes. I reckon I can do three gear changes on the Chorus before di2 in it's fastest setting has done one.

So you're saying your chorus is better than my mechanical Ultegra that I have on my winter bike?

I highly doubt that.

yep, quite a bit better

StillGoing

First.Aspect said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

StillGoing said:

paulbox said:

Diesel cars: I have a “sporty” diesel motor with flappy paddle gears. They are a complete waste of time.

I have a V6 Tdi Touareg with flappy paddles and its instantaneous gear changes when getting a wriggle on.

Mine is a twin turbo v6, it changes gear just as quickly in auto mode as it does with the pointless paddles. With a petrol engine you can hear the engine note and use the paddles accordingly. With diesels you have to look at the rev counter to know what the engine is doing so far better to leave in auto, especially if you have a sport setting which holds the gears a little bit longer.

Rubbish! Engine noise tells you exactly what the engine is doing. Maybe it's my experience as a Police Advanced Driver, but you know what a car is doing by the noise of the revs. Flappy paddles are for when getting a wriggle on and not meandering around town.

When I was racing motorcycles and using a quick shifter and slipper clutch, I didn't look at the rev counter to know when to change gear. Engine noise is enough of an indicator to know when you've reached peak revs.

Lol, you don’t think that there’s a difference in engine note between a racing motorcycle and a merc diesel that red lines at about 5k?

What does that say about police driving...

Says everything about you that you can't tell when an engine is reaching peak revs whether it's petrol or diesel. A Touareg is VW and not Mercedes by the way. Same engine that is in the Q7 and Cayenne.

Police driver is arrogant censored shock...

I was talking about my motor, not a toerag.

Policeman in can't process simple information shocker.

No one has said that it isn't possible with a diesel, but that it is pointless. By pointless I mean there is no point, such as an actual advantage, to doing so.

You probably aren't used to actually having a dialogue with a member of the public.

Dickhead cyclist alert eh?