Electronic gear shifting, Di2 et al.
Comments
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Yet again you prove you know nothing about me.webboo said:I wouldn’t necessarily take brudonmunchers word for it as he’s only had an electronic disc braked bike for a couple of months. So he won’t have done any servicing on it as should be under warranty. Unless like most things he’s making it about owning one.
According to this idiot, I don’t half have a lot of pictures of someone else’s bike. And I’ve had a few bikes with e group sets over the years ( although road discs are new to me, but I’ve had a few disc braked MTBs). As with most things, I tend to pull things apart ( out of curiosity more than anything else) and put them back together again, to make sure I understand them, and have always done. These systems are really quite complex, but have ‘user friendly interfaces’. They seem more simple than they actually are.
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Ignore my advice if you want, I don’t care, but this ^^^ posted above is tripe of the highest order.david37 said:
ignore the above comment, it is no more true about Di2 than it is about mechanical systems and if you can change a cable and adjust mechanical gears then this is possibly even easier, albeit you will need to familiarise yourself with the system procedures.brundonbianchi said:
It’s possible to do it at home, however, it’s not straightforward, and if it goes wrong because it’s been Ballsed up, it can be a complete show Stopper.FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
The discs are discs. I find the Shimano road ones less problematic than SRAM and since i bleed on average four a week, I've got some insight.
There is nothing that an interested home mechanic cant maintain. infact, i'd go so far as to say that youre better off doing this sort of stuff yourself than going to a large chain bike shop, spending tons of money and having a saturday boy "fixing" your bike. Apart from anything else youll save a ton of time and your bike will always be available.
Plus it's satisfying and fun to learn new things.
I havent got the money to buy Di2 but if I did I would, it's very nice. But so is DA mechanical and its a fraction of the price.
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I’d agree with most of that.pilot_pete said:A lot of censored is talked about di2 by people who have never used it. I have two versions of di2 Dura Ace and have used them and maintained them for several years. Here’s my take.
1. It is simplicity itself to set up - I built both my bikes myself. It’s a can-bus type system, so you just plug each cable into any port and the system recognises the components, so you can’t accidentally plug it in the ‘wrong’ port.
2. You download the free e-tube software, plug in your new system via usb on your laptop and then open the software. This allows you to set the system up however you like. You can do this wirelessly, but I have heard of people having problems trying to do that. I just use my laptop.
First thing is to run the software so all the components are recognised in e-tube. Then you can check for firmware updates and bring each component up to date, which takes a few minutes. Now you tell the software what chainrings and cassette cog range you have.
Then you can configure your shift buttons (they are certainly not flappy paddles, more like levers that only click rather than move much at all). You have two behind each brake lever, plus one hidden press button on top, underneath each hood.
Traditional setup would be like a manual setup - right switches go up and down the rear shifting, left lever switches do front chainrings. However, you can set them up however you want, including auto and semi auto, where the front shifting can be automated as you shift through the rear gears. You can set the buttons up like SRAM and have left downshift and right up shift the rear derailleur. Lots of combos that you can try to find what suits you best.
You can set the speed of shifting from slow to really fast, however you want it. If you want you can set the ‘hidden buttons’ to shift front or rear if you want (you would press them with your thumb when holding the hoods). However, the best thing I have found to do with the hidden buttons is to set them up to scroll left and right through your Garmin head unit pages. Yes, that’s right, hands free scrolling through Garmin (and I assume other head unit) pages. That is brilliant.
You need a Bluetooth sender unit plugged in somewhere in your system to achieve that and you can then also set up di2 displays on your Garmin, such as rear gear position, which I find handy on my ‘home’ page - saves looking down to check if you have any more gears to avoid cross chaining etc. It can also show trim positions for on the fly adjustments (which are rarely needed).
But, the best thing about having a Bluetooth sender in your system is that you can display di2 battery charge in a % of full display. Anyone who is worried about running out of battery charge needn’t be as there is no excuse with this. When it gets down to 30% I plug it in and recharge. Experience has taught me that if you let it get to 25% it goes down from there quite quickly. As others have said it will disable front shifting (putting you in the little ring) and preserve the little remaining charge for rear shifting. Unless you are a long way from home and shift the rear a lot, it should get you home.
3. Shimano provide dealer manuals online for every component of every groupset. They are easy to understand and to follow, with pictures. Even someone with little mechanical know how should be able to set it all up if they can just follow instructions.
4. Maintenance is simple. Plug in your charger to a USB port for power and the other end to your junction box (under stem or handlebar end usually), a light will illuminate showing it is charging and a few hours later, hey presto, 100% again. It depends how much you shift, but I generally get 1500-2000 miles out of a full charge.
The only other maintenance is updating the firmware for any components for which one is available. I generally check before charging.
Unless you crash, or say bang your rear derailleur you are unlikely to have to re-set it up. It’s that good that shifting is precise and simply doesn’t go out. Servo stepper motors are incredibly precise. Once you have set it up and fine tuned the indexing (I think you have 16 tiny adjustments each way to precisely tune the rear derailleur indexing), it’s fit and forget.
In 5 years on one bike I have only had to re-index it once - bent the hanger, replaced it and fine tuned it to get shifting perfect again. You can do this whilst riding by pushing the button on your junction box to get into index mode, then use your shift up/ down levers to move the derailleur index position in or out in 1/16 of a ‘shift’ increments to trim out any ‘tinkering’ chain rub etc. And that’s it. I’ve never had to do any other maintenance above what I would do on a mechanical setup, such as jockey wheel clean/ replace when worn etc.
5. Shifting is simplicity itself. A ‘mouse click’ on one or other of the paddles is all it takes to get an instant, precise, never miss shift. If you hold the shift button down you can swing across the complete cassette in one shift.
But, the really impressive shifting is the front mech. It just drives the chain instantly from small to big chainring. No having to push a lever a long way in a swift, solid motion to get a good shift. No scraping of chain against the big chainring waiting for it to lift, which you can get if you don’t make a perfect, positive lever push with mechanical. It just does it every time, without hesitation. It is mightily impressive when you first witness it. And I have NEVER had to re-adjust or fine tune a di2 front mech once set up. Absolutely spot on. Shifting from big down to small is of course much easier with mechanical, and di2 drops the chain perfectly every time onto the small ring, much like mechanical.
The final point about shifting is it can be done with one finger from any handlebar position (you can fit satellite shifter buttons to change gears from the tops of the bars, and/or sprint shift buttons on the indie of the drops).
It can also be done whilst braking, going downhill for example, approaching a junction - with hydro disc brakes, holding the hoods I can get full braking force with a couple of fingers and shift through as many gears as I want with my third finger whilst in full control. With truly flappy paddle manual levers like my 105, having to swing the lever through a big arc makes it hard to control braking precisely (still hydro disc) whilst say shifting the rear up by several cogs ready for my stop and subsequent pull away at a junction.
6. Other things I have not mentioned that di2 can do is limit shifting. For example, it can stop you from being able to select gear combinations that would result in cross chaining, e.g. stop 1st cog (and 2nd if you want) being selected if you are in the big ring, and vice versa if you are in the small chainring. You can also set it up to give you the next ratio when shifting front chainrings, for example if you are riding along on the small chainring, in say 6th gear and shift the front mech up onto the big chainring, the rear derailleur can be set to automatically move to the next ratio on the rear cog, which is probably the 4th cog - so you don’t go from spinning to grinding with a simple front only shift. Some like it, I personally just have it set to full manual as going from a fast downhill into a steep uphill I found that dropping from the big chainring to the little, it would drop me down two cogs on the back to the next lower ratio, when I wanted to drop right down to bottom gear for say a 15%+ incline! This meant I then had to shift down manually anyhow, but by two more cogs to get to bottom gear.
And that’s about it. To me the shifting is superb, much better and more consistently good and controllable whilst braking, than I ever had with manual cabled shifters, even good quality ones. I certainly wouldn’t go back. I have the latest 105 on my winter bike and it is great but not a patch on di2.
PP
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Except for one little problem. If the limit screws aren’t set correctly on Di2, the mech can ‘bump’ against a sprocket it can’t reach, continuously. And this will empty your battery quite nicely. Then you face a single speed Trek home.thegreatdivide said:
It's not an issue. Just charge the battery before it runs out. Anyone who ends up with an empty battery deserves to ride home in one gear.oxoman said:The thought of a 13mile commute stuck in one gear fills me with dread.
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Nice yellow socks/deck shoes combo. I had you down as more of a sandals and socks guy 😉brundonbianchi said:
Yet again you prove you know nothing about me.webboo said:I wouldn’t necessarily take brudonmunchers word for it as he’s only had an electronic disc braked bike for a couple of months. So he won’t have done any servicing on it as should be under warranty. Unless like most things he’s making it about owning one.
According to this idiot, I don’t half have a lot of pictures of someone else’s bike. And I’ve had a few bikes with e group sets over the years ( although road discs are new to me, but I’ve had a few disc braked MTBs). As with most things, I tend to pull things apart ( out of curiosity more than anything else) and put them back together again, to make sure I understand them, and have always done. These systems are really quite complex, but have ‘user friendly interfaces’. They seem more simple than they actually are.1 -
Sandals and socks are for high days and holidays only.shortfall said:
Nice yellow socks/deck shoes combo. I had you down as more of a sandals and socks guy 😉brundonbianchi said:
Yet again you prove you know nothing about me.webboo said:I wouldn’t necessarily take brudonmunchers word for it as he’s only had an electronic disc braked bike for a couple of months. So he won’t have done any servicing on it as should be under warranty. Unless like most things he’s making it about owning one.
According to this idiot, I don’t half have a lot of pictures of someone else’s bike. And I’ve had a few bikes with e group sets over the years ( although road discs are new to me, but I’ve had a few disc braked MTBs). As with most things, I tend to pull things apart ( out of curiosity more than anything else) and put them back together again, to make sure I understand them, and have always done. These systems are really quite complex, but have ‘user friendly interfaces’. They seem more simple than they actually are.
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Set your bike up correctly then. Pretty simple solution.brundonbianchi said:
Except for one little problem. If the limit screws aren’t set correctly on Di2, the mech can ‘bump’ against a sprocket it can’t reach, continuously. And this will empty your battery quite nicely. Then you face a single speed Trek home.thegreatdivide said:
It's not an issue. Just charge the battery before it runs out. Anyone who ends up with an empty battery deserves to ride home in one gear.oxoman said:The thought of a 13mile commute stuck in one gear fills me with dread.
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True, but it’s not as immediately obvious as it is with cables some times.50x11 said:
Set your bike up correctly then. Pretty simple solution.brundonbianchi said:
Except for one little problem. If the limit screws aren’t set correctly on Di2, the mech can ‘bump’ against a sprocket it can’t reach, continuously. And this will empty your battery quite nicely. Then you face a single speed Trek home.thegreatdivide said:
It's not an issue. Just charge the battery before it runs out. Anyone who ends up with an empty battery deserves to ride home in one gear.oxoman said:The thought of a 13mile commute stuck in one gear fills me with dread.
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What this idiot knows is that you have been caught lying and been banned for being abusive in the past. Other than that I don’t need to know anymore.brundonbianchi said:
Yet again you prove you know nothing about me.webboo said:I wouldn’t necessarily take brudonmunchers word for it as he’s only had an electronic disc braked bike for a couple of months. So he won’t have done any servicing on it as should be under warranty. Unless like most things he’s making it about owning one.
According to this idiot, I don’t half have a lot of pictures of someone else’s bike. And I’ve had a few bikes with e group sets over the years ( although road discs are new to me, but I’ve had a few disc braked MTBs). As with most things, I tend to pull things apart ( out of curiosity more than anything else) and put them back together again, to make sure I understand them, and have always done. These systems are really quite complex, but have ‘user friendly interfaces’. They seem more simple than they actually are.0 -
Disagreeing with something doesn't make it tripe of the highest order.brundonbianchi said:
Ignore my advice if you want, I don’t care, but this ^^^ posted above is tripe of the highest order.david37 said:
ignore the above comment, it is no more true about Di2 than it is about mechanical systems and if you can change a cable and adjust mechanical gears then this is possibly even easier, albeit you will need to familiarise yourself with the system procedures.brundonbianchi said:
It’s possible to do it at home, however, it’s not straightforward, and if it goes wrong because it’s been Ballsed up, it can be a complete show Stopper.FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
The discs are discs. I find the Shimano road ones less problematic than SRAM and since i bleed on average four a week, I've got some insight.
There is nothing that an interested home mechanic cant maintain. infact, i'd go so far as to say that youre better off doing this sort of stuff yourself than going to a large chain bike shop, spending tons of money and having a saturday boy "fixing" your bike. Apart from anything else youll save a ton of time and your bike will always be available.
Plus it's satisfying and fun to learn new things.
I havent got the money to buy Di2 but if I did I would, it's very nice. But so is DA mechanical and its a fraction of the price.0 -
I'm not into cars much but a quick Google suggests there's a number of performance diesels with paddle shifting. Anyway we digress.First.Aspect said:
Not enough rev range.shortfall said:
I'm not and advocate of flappy paddle shifting but why would the type of engine affect the choice? I mean I get it if you've got a 3.0 diesel Range Rover to tow your caravan you're not going to want split second shifts but otherwise?david37 said:
ignore the above comment, it is no more true about Di2 than it is about mechanical systems and if you can change a cable and adjust mechanical gears then this is possibly even easier, albeit you will need to familiarise yourself with the system procedures.brundonbianchi said:
It’s possible to do it at home, however, it’s not straightforward, and if it goes wrong because it’s been Ballsed up, it can be a complete show Stopper.FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
The discs are discs. I find the Shimano road ones less problematic than SRAM and since i bleed on average four a week, I've got some insight.
There is nothing that an interested home mechanic cant maintain. infact, i'd go so far as to say that youre better off doing this sort of stuff yourself than going to a large chain bike shop, spending tons of money and having a saturday boy "fixing" your bike. Apart from anything else youll save a ton of time and your bike will always be available.
Plus it's satisfying and fun to learn new things.
I havent got the money to buy Di2 but if I did I would, it's very nice. But so is DA mechanical and its a fraction of the price.
This is going to make me sound like a right w@nker....
but I have an Evoque diesel that is puffed at about 4.5k rpm and there's not a lot of point going past 3.5k. So realistically about 2k rev range. And it makes the same bag of spanners noise throughout. Using the flappy paddles you have no clue when you need to shift and you need to do it often.
Perfectly smooth and refined doing slowly in the background by itself.
I also a have a BMW 440i petrol that red lines at about 6.5k rpm and goes from great to glorious across the useable 5k rev range. So just like a manual you just know when to shift, and you can shift to go from languid to hell yeah just like a manual. And if you want you can switch to grandad mode. Best of both.
Perhaps I just don't like diesels.0 -
Damn does with a 3.0 V6 Tdi Touareg, with 245bhp and 600nm of torque.First.Aspect said:
Flappy paddle doesn't make sense if your car is a diesel...FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
Of course its better if you don't have to mess with indexing between component changes. It's simple to fit yourself and set up, something a good many cyclists can't do with mechanical set ups when they think indexing is a black art.yellowv2 said:As I alluded to it is not better or an improvement on cable shifting, it offers something different and appears you can choose to make it more complex if that floats your boat.
Personally I have no wish to use computers to set up my bike and will stick to Campagnolo mechanical, it works perfectly for me with minimal adjustment required. My best bike has Chorus 11 speed and has had the same cables for the last three years with only minor adjustment to the rear mech barrel adjuster. Winter bike has Veloce which has also been faultless with the same cables for the past three years.
No wishes to try EPS or criticise those who like Di/etap
Each to their own.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
True, that was a bit harsh TBF.darkhairedlord said:
Disagreeing with something doesn't make it tripe of the highest order.brundonbianchi said:
Ignore my advice if you want, I don’t care, but this ^^^ posted above is tripe of the highest order.david37 said:
ignore the above comment, it is no more true about Di2 than it is about mechanical systems and if you can change a cable and adjust mechanical gears then this is possibly even easier, albeit you will need to familiarise yourself with the system procedures.brundonbianchi said:
It’s possible to do it at home, however, it’s not straightforward, and if it goes wrong because it’s been Ballsed up, it can be a complete show Stopper.FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
The discs are discs. I find the Shimano road ones less problematic than SRAM and since i bleed on average four a week, I've got some insight.
There is nothing that an interested home mechanic cant maintain. infact, i'd go so far as to say that youre better off doing this sort of stuff yourself than going to a large chain bike shop, spending tons of money and having a saturday boy "fixing" your bike. Apart from anything else youll save a ton of time and your bike will always be available.
Plus it's satisfying and fun to learn new things.
I havent got the money to buy Di2 but if I did I would, it's very nice. But so is DA mechanical and its a fraction of the price.0 -
Its nothing to do with the power or number of cylinders. I just find myself staring at the rev counter to see whether I'm about to stall or about to hit the red line. I can't tell otherwise - flat torque curve and a noise like hitting a pan with a spoon, just different volumes.StillGoing said:
Damn does with a 3.0 V6 Tdi Touareg, with 245bhp and 600nm of torque.First.Aspect said:
Flappy paddle doesn't make sense if your car is a diesel...FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?0 -
Just because they are optioned doesn't make them any use.shortfall said:
I'm not into cars much but a quick Google suggests there's a number of performance diesels with paddle shifting. Anyway we digress.First.Aspect said:
Not enough rev range.shortfall said:
I'm not and advocate of flappy paddle shifting but why would the type of engine affect the choice? I mean I get it if you've got a 3.0 diesel Range Rover to tow your caravan you're not going to want split second shifts but otherwise?david37 said:
ignore the above comment, it is no more true about Di2 than it is about mechanical systems and if you can change a cable and adjust mechanical gears then this is possibly even easier, albeit you will need to familiarise yourself with the system procedures.brundonbianchi said:
It’s possible to do it at home, however, it’s not straightforward, and if it goes wrong because it’s been Ballsed up, it can be a complete show Stopper.FreddieVonRost said:Flappy paddle makes sense.
Can electronic systems and top grade disc brakes get serviced at home or is is a case of getting a specialist to do it?
The discs are discs. I find the Shimano road ones less problematic than SRAM and since i bleed on average four a week, I've got some insight.
There is nothing that an interested home mechanic cant maintain. infact, i'd go so far as to say that youre better off doing this sort of stuff yourself than going to a large chain bike shop, spending tons of money and having a saturday boy "fixing" your bike. Apart from anything else youll save a ton of time and your bike will always be available.
Plus it's satisfying and fun to learn new things.
I havent got the money to buy Di2 but if I did I would, it's very nice. But so is DA mechanical and its a fraction of the price.
This is going to make me sound like a right w@nker....
but I have an Evoque diesel that is puffed at about 4.5k rpm and there's not a lot of point going past 3.5k. So realistically about 2k rev range. And it makes the same bag of spanners noise throughout. Using the flappy paddles you have no clue when you need to shift and you need to do it often.
Perfectly smooth and refined doing slowly in the background by itself.
I also a have a BMW 440i petrol that red lines at about 6.5k rpm and goes from great to glorious across the useable 5k rev range. So just like a manual you just know when to shift, and you can shift to go from languid to hell yeah just like a manual. And if you want you can switch to grandad mode. Best of both.
Perhaps I just don't like diesels.0 -
Of course its better if you don't have to mess with indexing between component changes. It's simple to fit yourself and set up, something a good many cyclists can't do with mechanical set ups when they think indexing is a black art.
Each to their own. You obviously like it and that's fine but it isn't better.
Whether it is easier/simpler is debatable and I don't believe it is.0 -
Of course it's better, just because you're scared of computers doesn't make it any different.yellowv2 said:Of course its better if you don't have to mess with indexing between component changes. It's simple to fit yourself and set up, something a good many cyclists can't do with mechanical set ups when they think indexing is a black art.
Each to their own. You obviously like it and that's fine but it isn't better.
Whether it is easier/simpler is debatable and I don't believe it is.
Being able to set it up once and ride without worrying about indexing etc is superb. Plug and go is always better than plug and adjust.1 -
I’ve been using my Di2 equipped Boardman Air 9.6 almost everyday since the end of Feb but today I got on my new-build with an Ultegra 6800 groupset.
The difference is immense, especially darting in and out of the central London traffic.
Give me Di2 everyday.1 -
It depends on which gear system you use as to how much it improves your experience.
The one gear change you get from the long throw on a Shimano groupset downshift means that a small click on Di2 for multiple shifts is a massive improvement on what is a pretty archaic and poor piece of engineering. Certainly, I found that Di2 turned the industries worst Sti levers into something approaching decent, the next step would be to be able to better co-ordinate rear and front mech' changes so you don't get that occasional spinny leg thing when you change the front mech down.
Or you can just buy a groupset that allows you to do those things anyway.
As to indexing, I think I can live with the terrible trauma of turning the rear mech barrel adjuster by a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn once every blue moon.
I did really enjoy using Di2 even though there were minor issues easily solved and it has a lot of interesting features. But I can get the same if not more from other mechanical groupsets.1 -
I’m not afraid of computers at all! Just don’t want to use them to set up gears on a bike.50x11 said:
Of course it's better, just because you're scared of computers doesn't make it any different.yellowv2 said:Of course its better if you don't have to mess with indexing between component changes. It's simple to fit yourself and set up, something a good many cyclists can't do with mechanical set ups when they think indexing is a black art.
Each to their own. You obviously like it and that's fine but it isn't better.
Whether it is easier/simpler is debatable and I don't believe it is.
Being able to set it up once and ride without worrying about indexing etc is superb. Plug and go is always better than plug and adjust.
As I keep saying it is not better, end of. It’s just different.0 -
And as everyone keeps telling you it is.yellowv2 said:
I’m not afraid of computers at all! Just don’t want to use them to set up gears on a bike.50x11 said:
Of course it's better, just because you're scared of computers doesn't make it any different.yellowv2 said:Of course its better if you don't have to mess with indexing between component changes. It's simple to fit yourself and set up, something a good many cyclists can't do with mechanical set ups when they think indexing is a black art.
Each to their own. You obviously like it and that's fine but it isn't better.
Whether it is easier/simpler is debatable and I don't believe it is.
Being able to set it up once and ride without worrying about indexing etc is superb. Plug and go is always better than plug and adjust.
As I keep saying it is not better, end of. It’s just different.0 -
Is this not the syncro shift feature they have?teisetrotter said:the next step would be to be able to better co-ordinate rear and front mech' changes so you don't get that occasional spinny leg thing when you change the front mech down.
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And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.
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But to take your analogy further, an automatic gearbox can be measurably superior in terms of fuel economy, acceleration and shift speed.yellowv2 said:And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.
Some drivers prefer to use a manual despite the minor disadvantages.0 -
Yes.50x11 said:
Is this not the syncro shift feature they have?teisetrotter said:the next step would be to be able to better co-ordinate rear and front mech' changes so you don't get that occasional spinny leg thing when you change the front mech down.
The ‘MyCampy’ app interface for EPS groupsets gives you numbers and graphs to show how the ratios it uses on the double shift compare. It’s really very nice, I think that SRAM AXS does something very similar, I can’t remember if Shimano do with Di2.
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Not sure that is totally correct I’ve never seen a fuel comparison which shows automatic transmission being superior to manual, always the other way round, afaik.First.Aspect said:
But to take your analogy further, an automatic gearbox can be measurably superior in terms of fuel economy, acceleration and shift speed.yellowv2 said:And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.
Some drivers prefer to use a manual despite the minor disadvantages.0 -
But it's measurably better: more efficient, needs less maintenance, and more user friendly and customisable.yellowv2 said:And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.
Just because "not everyone" (you) think it isn't better doesn't make it so.1 -
Are we still discussing Di2 et al, or am l missing something?Not a Giro Hero!0
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I may be the only one bothered to challenge your opinion in this thread but I am by no means the only person who believes it is not better.50x11 said:
But it's measurably better: more efficient, needs less maintenance, and more user friendly and customisable.yellowv2 said:And it is nonsense! Everyone being who? Those who prefer it.
It Is an opinion, much like suggesting an automatic gearbox in a car, is better than a manual it is personal preference.
Just except not everyone thinks it is.
Just because "not everyone" (you) think it isn't better doesn't make it so.
There are people on this forum who have had it and reverted or will, back to mechanical.
It’s about opinion that is all there is to it. You and I don’t agree so we’ll agree to disagree and move on!0
