Is this expected wear and tear?
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Any movement is only in one direction though isn't it. So any tolerances will be taken up pretty quickly, will be comparatively small and don't explain what you are looking at in the photo.
I know I'm slightly slow and all that, but this is just engineeringy sounding techno babble, isn't it?0 -
No worries Pal. You are probably right, even if fitting a cassette to a freehub seems the same each time I imagine there can be a lot of difference in materials, quality and tolerance levels especially on the cheaper hubs I owned.imposter2.0 said:
Like Ugo said - not all freehubs are built to the same tolerances. Some cassettes will always be a loose fit on a particular freehub, while others will be a snug fit. So tightening it won't have much, if any, impact on how it sits on the hub. And a freehub with 'looser' tolerances will obviously promote more in terms of movement than one with a snug fit. So, 'fitment' is more than just tightening it, which is what I'm getting at. And regardless of how many time you personally have done this with no issue, the OP's experience is clearly different.reaperactual said:
+1 Eh? Lost you me there too imposter2.0.
I stuck a cassette on an alloy freehub, it fit snug. I stuck a cassette on a steel freehub, it fit snug too, tightened up with a torque wrench, it wasn't rocket science or any more steps involved with this simple task.
I've performed this task lots of times the same way and it always worked with the same end results? Also never felt any difference or knew that each time required an alternative method as I assume a Shimano HG freehub is a HG freehub and a cassette is a cassette?
The only trouble is this can only be realised after the damage is already done and noticed the next time cassette is taken off.
I'm not worried about my Hope steel freehub, not only because it steel but I trust in their quality and (I'm assuming tight tolerances) in their manufacturing process.😎👍1 -
Yes, pretty much that. And I'm not saying you are slow.First.Aspect said:
I know I'm slightly slow and all that, but this is just engineeringy sounding techno babble, isn't it?0 -
You think the fact that some freehubs vary in tolerance from other freehubs is 'techno babble'..?veronese68 said:
Yes, pretty much that. And I'm not saying you are slow.First.Aspect said:
I know I'm slightly slow and all that, but this is just engineeringy sounding techno babble, isn't it?
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That notching most likely happened because the lockring was not torqued to sufficently. 40Nm min 50 Nm max.
Thats a miche primato hub so a Miche primato freehub fits.
Most people don't use but need to use a torque wrench. me and jamie in the shop are decent mechanics and we know what 40Nm feels like however we still use a torque wrench. Done properly that sort of notching is not something we see on our own miche hubs or our customers. We do see it on hubs where the customer has fitted the cassette. Neither do i see it the bikes thay we get for service and many have alloy freehubs. It seems torquing properly avoids this issue.
Now do we blame the freehub here or the lack of skill or assumption of "that will do" of the cassette fitter.
Some freehubs are more prone to notching than others but being a mechanic and seeing how tight punters do there lockrings up i can say it probably what i say it is. These customers also say they did it up as tight as they could. No they didn't.
So unless your using a good torque wrench then you don't know if the locking is tight enough. If you get notching then it probably isn't tight enough.
Those that claim that alloy freehubs in general will need then to explain how this rider (and many others) who is not light manages not to notch his own miche freehubs like the op has.
Sorry to drone about this but is don't like sweeping statement that i know are mostly always true.www.thecycleclinic.co.uk0 -
No, I'm saying it's irrelevant.imposter2.0 said:
You think the fact that some freehubs vary in tolerance from other freehubs is 'techno babble'..?veronese68 said:
Yes, pretty much that. And I'm not saying you are slow.First.Aspect said:
I know I'm slightly slow and all that, but this is just engineeringy sounding techno babble, isn't it?0 -
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The torque thing is interesting cycleclinic, but the OP states that he used a torque wrench and 45Nm. I'm struggling, if I am honest, to imagine that a little nylon spacer will offer much resistance, given that nylon is used for bushings (I'm assuming they are nylon in miche cassettes... Could be wrong). But let's go with it.
What sort of variation do you see with torque wrenches? If. For example the OP only hit 35, what sort of difference would that make?0 -
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:0 -
First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....0 -
There are lots of interesting people with interesting professional skills and backgrounds on this forum, imposter, with PhDs and everything. Lawyers, lecturers, finance professionals etc, blah..imposter2.0 said:First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....
I was just curious that's all. Can sometimes help to understand where someone is coming from.0 -
Hear this all the time, ''through experience I can feel how tight something is'👽 or 'I can tell how many P.S.I. in my tyre by pressing it with my thumb' 👽not worth arguing with this logic, I've tried, most responses are 'because torque wrenches and tyre gauges aren't accurate or calibration is off.'First.Aspect said:The torque thing is interesting cycleclinic, but the OP states that he used a torque wrench and 45Nm. I'm struggling, if I am honest, to imagine that a little nylon spacer will offer much resistance, given that nylon is used for bushings (I'm assuming they are nylon in miche cassettes... Could be wrong). But let's go with it.
What sort of variation do you see with torque wrenches? If. For example the OP only hit 35, what sort of difference would that make?
I'd still trust a cheap, badly calibrated or inaccurate torque wrench over the 'stiff door handle' theory 👽 or a cheap pump's gauge over the 'like a firm peach' theory. 👽
As cycleclinic states they know what 40Nm feels like but still use a torque wrench, if they're so sure why bother with the torque wrench?
How often does someone have to tighten something before they can be confident it is as accurate compared to a or torque wrench?
I cracked my carbon bars fitting them by 'feel' that's why I use torque wrenches now and trust them.
So the O.P's torque wrench could be to blame for their notched freehub? 👽0 -
Because there a difference between knowing and knowing. If doing work you need to be sure right. However feel is important as it informs us if something wrong with the thread as we tighten.
Never cracked a carbon bar even delicate deda ones. I do those by feel as 3 to 4 Nm is nothing. Even with a torque wrench any inaccuracy is going to cause an issue.
Just stating you use a torque wrench is not by itself enough to ensure your doing it tight enough. Feel and the tool combined normally are. As i have said there are lots of 90 to 100kg riders out there. What make the the op so special that he notched a freehub whereas others don't. Blaming the product first is what those that don't understand the problem always do.
Trusting a tool above feel and feel above the tool is exactly what i am on about.
With tyres you can't know the pressure by feel but you can know you have enough or too much from experience. Trusting a cheap pump with a guage which does not tell the truth is going to confuse matters for the user. When pumping i always check by with a pinch afterwards. Feel and the tool. Its quite important.
In summary if a probkem is occurring why blame the product if you think you have followed instructions. Why not first check the assumptions you have made about your tools for one.
As an example. I had a clonk from my look 795. I removed the pedals and pedal inserts, cleaned everything up and greased the pedals threads. It clonked on the way home.
Next day check chainring bolt and replaced the bb bearings. On the way to the chippie it was even noisier. So Jamie could cast your eye. He did and he said malcolm what about those plastic bearing sleeves on the axle. Ah that could be it so i got some fresh ones and its oh so quiet now. Moral is never assume you have checked everything. Never blame the product. Get a second opinion (a good one) and listen it. Thats why you asked.www.thecycleclinic.co.uk0 -
It wouldn't help in your case. And I've no interest in outlining my career history (made-up or genuine) on a public forum, to someone I'm never likely to meet. I leave that sort of thing to walts like milemuncher, or anyone else in constant need of peer acceptance.First.Aspect said:
There are lots of interesting people with interesting professional skills and backgrounds on this forum, imposter, with PhDs and everything. Lawyers, lecturers, finance professionals etc, blah..imposter2.0 said:First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....
I was just curious that's all. Can sometimes help to understand where someone is coming from.0 -
I wasn't asking whether you should tighten things correctly or not.reaperactual said:
Hear this all the time, ''through experience I can feel how tight something is'👽 or 'I can tell how many P.S.I. in my tyre by pressing it with my thumb' 👽not worth arguing with this logic, I've tried, most responses are 'because torque wrenches and tyre gauges aren't accurate or calibration is off.'First.Aspect said:The torque thing is interesting cycleclinic, but the OP states that he used a torque wrench and 45Nm. I'm struggling, if I am honest, to imagine that a little nylon spacer will offer much resistance, given that nylon is used for bushings (I'm assuming they are nylon in miche cassettes... Could be wrong). But let's go with it.
What sort of variation do you see with torque wrenches? If. For example the OP only hit 35, what sort of difference would that make?
I'd still trust a cheap, badly calibrated or inaccurate torque wrench over the 'stiff door handle' theory 👽 or a cheap pump's gauge over the 'like a firm peach' theory. 👽
As cycleclinic states they know what 40Nm feels like but still use a torque wrench, if they're so sure why bother with the torque wrench?
How often does someone have to tighten something before they can be confident it is as accurate compared to a or torque wrench?
I cracked my carbon bars fitting them by 'feel' that's why I use torque wrenches now and trust them.
So the O.P's torque wrench could be to blame for their notched freehub? 👽
I am struggling to believe that the torque applied to the lock ring could prevent what would surely be a far greater torque applied to the sprockets themselves in use from twisting in relation to the freehub.0 -
Surely it's possible to know roughly someone's background without them being a "Walt"? For example, we know from the "unpopular opinions" that Ugo is a PhD in chemistry, like me. He seems comfortable enough in his own skin to take some ribbing and still consider me wrong.imposter2.0 said:
It wouldn't help in your case. And I've no interest in outlining my career history (made-up or genuine) on a public forum, to someone I'm never likely to meet. I leave that sort of thing to walts like milemuncher, or anyone else in constant need of peer acceptance.First.Aspect said:
There are lots of interesting people with interesting professional skills and backgrounds on this forum, imposter, with PhDs and everything. Lawyers, lecturers, finance professionals etc, blah..imposter2.0 said:First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....
I was just curious that's all. Can sometimes help to understand where someone is coming from.
You are very, very certain about what you say and very quick to jeer.
So I've always assumed you work in an environment where jeering gets you somewhere.
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First.Aspect I'm in total agreement with you. I quoted your response to cycleclinic. I also disregard this theory of how tight a lockring should be dictating the damage caused whether torqued by hand or otherwise.
I'm still convinced that the alloy is to blame, maybe poor tolerance could be a factor also but not a fitting issue or user error.0 -
Whoops.reaperactual said:First.Aspect I'm in total agreement with you. I quoted your response to cycleclinic. I also disregard this theory of how tight a lockring should be dictating the damage caused whether torqued by hand or otherwise.
I'm still convinced that the alloy is to blame, maybe poor tolerance could be a factor also but not a fitting issue or user error.1 -
Probably my mistake Pal. Wasn't being clear as to my meaning perhaps? 👍0
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Mate, I'm not going to go out with you. I don't have a PhD, but I've worked with plenty that do. And outside of their specialist environment, a couple of them were some of the most incompetent fckwits I've ever met. I don't care about your PhD in chemistry and I don't jeer at anyone else - just you. And I only do that because you have a history of trolling and crass stupidity. If you ever prove me wrong, I'll stop jeering at you.First.Aspect said:
Surely it's possible to know roughly someone's background without them being a "Walt"? For example, we know from the "unpopular opinions" that Ugo is a PhD in chemistry, like me. He seems comfortable enough in his own skin to take some ribbing and still consider me wrong.imposter2.0 said:
It wouldn't help in your case. And I've no interest in outlining my career history (made-up or genuine) on a public forum, to someone I'm never likely to meet. I leave that sort of thing to walts like milemuncher, or anyone else in constant need of peer acceptance.First.Aspect said:
There are lots of interesting people with interesting professional skills and backgrounds on this forum, imposter, with PhDs and everything. Lawyers, lecturers, finance professionals etc, blah..imposter2.0 said:First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....
I was just curious that's all. Can sometimes help to understand where someone is coming from.
You are very, very certain about what you say and very quick to jeer.
So I've always assumed you work in an environment where jeering gets you somewhere.0 -
Actually, to be clear - I also jeer at milemuncher.0
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Thanks for confirming.imposter2.0 said:
Mate, I'm not going to go out with you. I don't have a PhD, but I've worked with plenty that do. And outside of their specialist environment, a couple of them were some of the most incompetent fckwits I've ever met. I don't care about your PhD in chemistry and I don't jeer at anyone else - just you. And I only do that because you have a history of trolling and crass stupidity. If you ever prove me wrong, I'll stop jeering at you.First.Aspect said:
Surely it's possible to know roughly someone's background without them being a "Walt"? For example, we know from the "unpopular opinions" that Ugo is a PhD in chemistry, like me. He seems comfortable enough in his own skin to take some ribbing and still consider me wrong.imposter2.0 said:
It wouldn't help in your case. And I've no interest in outlining my career history (made-up or genuine) on a public forum, to someone I'm never likely to meet. I leave that sort of thing to walts like milemuncher, or anyone else in constant need of peer acceptance.First.Aspect said:
There are lots of interesting people with interesting professional skills and backgrounds on this forum, imposter, with PhDs and everything. Lawyers, lecturers, finance professionals etc, blah..imposter2.0 said:First.Aspect said:
Out of curiosity, what's your technical background? i.e. physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering,.physiology edicine, nutrition, etc?imposter2.0 said:
You go first. Then I'll make up some stuff that goes one better than whatever you claim to have....
I was just curious that's all. Can sometimes help to understand where someone is coming from.
You are very, very certain about what you say and very quick to jeer.
So I've always assumed you work in an environment where jeering gets you somewhere.1 -
Why does t'internet always have to deteriorate to defamatory arguments
It's the same with the ill-informed who comment on complex court cases, politics, and religion without having all the information.
The truth of the matter is that only the OP is in possession of all the facts and is in a position to understand what actually happened. He's asked for help/opinion and various parties have offered their suggestions (basically poor-quality free hub or incorrect assembly either through error or faulty equipment), he's quite sensibly then responded with further information. No-one's opinion is any more valid than anyone else's, and what the OP does with those opinions is his business.2 -
Dunno about the whole everyone's opinion is equal thing. That puts climate change deniers and 7th day adventits on the same level as, say, Richard Dawkins.0
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The problem being some may claim to know more than Richard Dawkins however much their posts indicate otherwise.First.Aspect said:Dunno about the whole everyone's opinion is equal thing. That puts climate change deniers and 7th day adventits on the same level as, say, Richard Dawkins.
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I don't know whether to laugh or be offended. I'll go with laugh.veronese68 said:
The problem being some may claim to know more than Richard Dawkins however much their posts indicate otherwise.First.Aspect said:Dunno about the whole everyone's opinion is equal thing. That puts climate change deniers and 7th day adventits on the same level as, say, Richard Dawkins.
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Someone should ask Richard Dawkins what he thinks about alu freehubs and whether torque wrenches should be used on cassette lock rings....0
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Hope the O.P. has taken opinions, theories, etc, formed his own conclusions by now and has given up reading this thread as it's descended into the twilight zone. 🤯 I'm lost and I'm out!👋s_j_pwmb said:Why does t'internet always have to deteriorate to defamatory arguments
It's the same with the ill-informed who comment on complex court cases, politics, and religion without having all the information.
The truth of the matter is that only the OP is in possession of all the facts and is in a position to understand what actually happened. He's asked for help/opinion and various parties have offered their suggestions (basically poor-quality free hub or incorrect assembly either through error or faulty equipment), he's quite sensibly then responded with further information. No-one's opinion is any more valid than anyone else's, and what the OP does with those opinions is his business.0 -
I have the same marks although very slight on my DT Swiss freehub. I also use a torque wrench to tighten up the cassette.
I'm sure I saw an article on the DT Swiss site (I think?) about freehub maintenance that shows the marks and advises to use a fine file to remove them.0 -
My aluminium alloy freehub. shimano freehub. I pulled the cassette off to switch the freehub to campagnolo. I'm 90kg not that got anything to do with with this topic. This freehub has done a few thousand km.
No notching. Slight marks will happen sometimes but nothing that should make cassette removal difficult . The cassette pulled off easily.
The only way notching can happen is if the sprockets can move relative to the freehub.
https://ibb.co/RbHDHpJwww.thecycleclinic.co.uk0
