Is this expected wear and tear?
Brought the wheel in to Condor for a warranty claim and they say the notching is wear and tear and so they will not repair or replace it.
Is this reasonable for a wheel now?
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Yep... normal wear and tear
left the forum March 20230 -
Well I guess I've been fortunate with the wheels on my other bikes because this is the first wheel I've owned that has experienced this.
So based on that I would rather stick with Shimano or Hope hubs in future as they've been bulletproof in contrast.0 -
I wouldn't say it's 'normal' wear and tear - as that is quite serious notching for a year-old freehub. But it is a sign that the cassette has been poorly fitted or incorrectly tightened.0
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Bloomin’ lightweight aluminium free hubs. Back when free wheels were cast iron that didn’t happen.
I have to agree with imposter2.0, I think it’s indicative of an incorrectly fitted cassette, probably too loose (either not torqued-up properly or it was missing a spacer such as the ones to allow the free hub to be compatible with a variety of speed cassettes) and consequently the individual sprockets were moving against one another.0 -
You can see the spacers still present on the freehub in the photo.
I have a torque wrench which I use to tighten up the lock-ring to 40 Nm (as specified on the part) and have always used it when I have replaced any of my cassettes but this is the only freehub that has been so horribly notched.
The other freehubs are steel (As determined by a magnet. Shimano, Easton and no-name Halfords/Carrera) and are fine. To me this makes an installation fault very unlikely.
As an aside, I find it interesting that many wheels/bikes I've purchased in the past have come with a lifetime 'stay-true' warranty despite the variations in rider weight, riding style and road conditions that will affect this. Yet a freehub notched this badly within a year is not covered! Seems quite cynical to me.
Lesson learned I guess. I'll stay clear of alloy hubs in the future. At 95kg I'm not overly concerned with wheel weights. I bought this wheel from Condor after a crash damaged the previous wheel a few days before I was due to go on holiday with the bike.0 -
There's nothing actually wrong with alu freehubs as such, so no need to stay clear of them. It's just important to fit the cassette properly, assuming the cassette is actually compatible. I have some wheels over 10 years old with alu freehubs, and none are anywhere near as bad as that.0
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This normal for alloy freehubs. No amount of tightening of the locking will prevent it, but you may succeed in stripping the (alloy) thread in the freehub trying.0
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Experienced this notching issue (to a lesser extent) twice on alloy freehubs within 8 months on my MTB despite ensuring I torque wrenched lockring to 45Nm.curium99 said:Well I guess I've been fortunate with the wheels on my other bikes because this is the first wheel I've owned that has experienced this.
So based on that I would rather stick with Shimano or Hope hubs in future as they've been bulletproof in contrast.
No such issue for my Hope Pro 4's because I chose the Shimano steel freehub option.0 -
I don't know why manufacturers don't put those bite strips on both sides, they'd solve the issue.reaperactual said:
Experienced this notching issue (to a lesser extent) twice on alloy freehubs within 8 months on my MTB despite ensuring I torque wrenched lockring to 45Nm.curium99 said:Well I guess I've been fortunate with the wheels on my other bikes because this is the first wheel I've owned that has experienced this.
So based on that I would rather stick with Shimano or Hope hubs in future as they've been bulletproof in contrast.
No such issue for my Hope Pro 4's because I chose the Shimano steel freehub option.
Not all aluminium alloys are equal, either.1 -
Amen! First.Aspect. 👍👍1
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Interestingly a user on another forum stated that using higher-end cassettes helps as more of the sprockets are pinned together which helps to spread the load in contrast to 105 cassettes where only the top 3 sprockets are joined.
Another user stated that they’d managed to squeeze a small sewing needle in between the cassette and splines which they claim has solved the issue.
Another user suggested this is less of an issue with campag free-hubs because the design gives a bigger contact area. I’ve no experience with campag so can’t comment.
The bottom line is that with so many cases this would seem to be an example of a poor choice of materials which may be justified in people buying high-end wheels where weight is everything but seems odd for an everyday wheel1 -
curium99, my notching issue was on cheaper 9 speed cassettes, also first seven gears were pinned and didn't seem to make a lot of difference except maybe more uniform notches as opposed to deeper on certain cogs.
Makes me wonder about all the statements of 'computer aided shift gate designs' being meaningless or marketing hype if certain separate cogs have rotated out of their position even though only slightly?
I've seen hacks using a section of paper clip inserted the same way you described also heard of Campag having deeper splines to negate the problem.
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?0 -
Relatively Soft freehub, and relatively hard cassettes cause this sort of thing. I’d say it’s perfectly reasonable to call it “wear and tear”0
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That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?
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Thought is was a badly installed cassette?imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?1 -
If you could read properly, you might be able to afford more tyres.First.Aspect said:
Thought is was a badly installed cassette?imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?1 -
imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?
Skimming over this thread again it seems 50/50 that this is accepted as wear and tear and a new freehub should be added to general running costs as part of drivetrain consumables.
No thanks, I'll leave the bag of crisps out of my backpack to offset the extra weight and stick to a steel freehub instead! 👍0 -
An alu freehub will notch more than a steel one, obviously, but I've never seen one that bad before. That's why I think there is also a fitment issue here. You're right though, the weight saving is largely meaningless...reaperactual said:imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?
Skimming over this thread again it seems 50/50 that this is accepted as wear and tear and a new freehub should be added to general running costs as part of drivetrain consumables.
No thanks, I'll leave the bag of crisps out of my backpack to offset the extra weight and stick to a steel freehub instead! 👍1 -
Steel freehub or anti-bite strip in an ali one if using a cassette with loose sprockets. Some SRAM cassettes have the sprockets attached to an ali carrier which works well.1
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Don't agree it's anything to do with fitment issues. I'm with the OP, I have a torque wrench and use it to apply recommended values +5Nn as extra reassurance cassette is tight to spec. Don't know any other method or guidelines to make cassette any more secure without the risk of stripping lockring thread.imposter2.0 said:
An alu freehub will notch more than a steel one, obviously, but I've never seen one that bad before. That's why I think there is also a fitment issue here. You're right though, the weight saving is largely meaningless...reaperactual said:imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?
Skimming over this thread again it seems 50/50 that this is accepted as wear and tear and a new freehub should be added to general running costs as part of drivetrain consumables.
No thanks, I'll leave the bag of crisps out of my backpack to offset the extra weight and stick to a steel freehub instead! 👍
Surely radial torque will far exceed any axial torque one could apply?
Two alloy freehubs notched, one steel freehub fine, I understand the reasons for alloy freehubs, but at the cost of durability, for a few grams?
The issues I have with notching is the b#tch of a job getting the cassette off, paying again and again for a part that could last the lifetime of a hub, the other 99% of the time I couldn't care less.0 -
It's not a fitment issue, for the reasons reaperactual has given.imposter2.0 said:
If you could read properly, you might be able to afford more tyres.First.Aspect said:
Thought is was a badly installed cassette?imposter2.0 said:
That's exactly why they are used. It's a trade-off...reaperactual said:
Maybe these alloy materials are used in the seemingly all important factor of saving a few grams at the expense of strength and durability?
This happens a lot with cheaper aluminium alloys. It's not some trade off with weight saving or anything like that.
The reason I'm flagging this advice is because the threads are necessarily also made of the same soft alloy and are quite fine. So encouraging someone to tighten the shjt out of the lock ring in a misguided attempt to prevent the inevitable will just cause more damage.
I've got lots of wheels with alloy freehubs. Some are worse than others. The novatecs that the likes of hunt use are particularly soft.
It's actually quite easy to get by with them for a while though. You can pull each of the individual cogs out of the notch using two chain whips. Shifting isn't so sensitive to alignment that the slight twisting will have a noticeable effect.1 -
imposter2.0 said:
I'll have to dig out a photo of mine. In my defence, it was second hand and it was like that when I got it, I just made it worsereaperactual said:An alu freehub will notch more than a steel one, obviously, but I've never seen one that bad before. That's why I think there is also a fitment issue here. You're right though, the weight saving is largely meaningless...
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'Fitment' doesn't just mean 'banging something up tight with a torque wrench' though and it shouldn't imply criticism of the OP either way. There are also tolerance and clearance issues to consider which may have an impact on the indentations, regardless of how tight the cassette lock ring might or might not be.reaperactual said:
Don't agree it's anything to do with fitment issues. I'm with the OP, I have a torque wrench and use it to apply recommended values +5Nn as extra reassurance cassette is tight to spec. Don't know any other method or guidelines to make cassette any more secure without the risk of stripping lockring thread.
Surely radial torque will far exceed any axial torque one could apply?
Two alloy freehubs notched, one steel freehub fine, I understand the reasons for alloy freehubs, but at the cost of durability, for a few grams?
The issues I have with notching is the b#tch of a job getting the cassette off, paying again and again for a part that could last the lifetime of a hub, the other 99% of the time I couldn't care less.0 -
Eh?imposter2.0 said:
'Fitment' doesn't just mean 'banging something up tight with a torque wrench' though and it shouldn't imply criticism of the OP either way. There are also tolerance and clearance issues to consider which may have an impact on the indentations, regardless of how tight the cassette lock ring might or might not be.reaperactual said:
Don't agree it's anything to do with fitment issues. I'm with the OP, I have a torque wrench and use it to apply recommended values +5Nn as extra reassurance cassette is tight to spec. Don't know any other method or guidelines to make cassette any more secure without the risk of stripping lockring thread.
Surely radial torque will far exceed any axial torque one could apply?
Two alloy freehubs notched, one steel freehub fine, I understand the reasons for alloy freehubs, but at the cost of durability, for a few grams?
The issues I have with notching is the b#tch of a job getting the cassette off, paying again and again for a part that could last the lifetime of a hub, the other 99% of the time I couldn't care less.0 -
Like I said earlier - if you had a decent reading age, you'd be dangerous...First.Aspect said:
Eh?imposter2.0 said:
'Fitment' doesn't just mean 'banging something up tight with a torque wrench' though and it shouldn't imply criticism of the OP either way. There are also tolerance and clearance issues to consider which may have an impact on the indentations, regardless of how tight the cassette lock ring might or might not be.reaperactual said:
Don't agree it's anything to do with fitment issues. I'm with the OP, I have a torque wrench and use it to apply recommended values +5Nn as extra reassurance cassette is tight to spec. Don't know any other method or guidelines to make cassette any more secure without the risk of stripping lockring thread.
Surely radial torque will far exceed any axial torque one could apply?
Two alloy freehubs notched, one steel freehub fine, I understand the reasons for alloy freehubs, but at the cost of durability, for a few grams?
The issues I have with notching is the b#tch of a job getting the cassette off, paying again and again for a part that could last the lifetime of a hub, the other 99% of the time I couldn't care less.0 -
When I was building wheels, pretty much all the Novatec that came in for service or bearing replacement had deep dents in the freehub, irrespective of the cassette used.
Doing the lockring tight doesn't seem to help much either, you compress the sprockets against each other, but when you are on a hill, the amount of torque you put on the pedals will cause the sprocket to move and chew in the splines if it can do so.
Even the steel inserts didn't help much , surprisingly.
Obviously Shimano freehubs, either steel or titanium were intact, and so were the steel Hope freehubs. Everything else got dented to various extents, mostly depending on the size and power output of the rider, but also on the brand and presumably on the choice of alloy. Cheap and light Taiwanese hubs always the worst off
left the forum March 20232 -
The individual sprockets will pivot around the bite guard, so the indentations are always worst 180 degrees around from that.
No idea what "tolerance and clearance issues" are, in this context.0 -
+1 Eh? Lost you me there too imposter2.0.First.Aspect said:
Eh?imposter2.0 said:
'Fitment' doesn't just mean 'banging something up tight with a torque wrench' though and it shouldn't imply criticism of the OP either way. There are also tolerance and clearance issues to consider which may have an impact on the indentations, regardless of how tight the cassette lock ring might or might not be.reaperactual said:
Don't agree it's anything to do with fitment issues. I'm with the OP, I have a torque wrench and use it to apply recommended values +5Nn as extra reassurance cassette is tight to spec. Don't know any other method or guidelines to make cassette any more secure without the risk of stripping lockring thread.
Surely radial torque will far exceed any axial torque one could apply?
Two alloy freehubs notched, one steel freehub fine, I understand the reasons for alloy freehubs, but at the cost of durability, for a few grams?
The issues I have with notching is the b#tch of a job getting the cassette off, paying again and again for a part that could last the lifetime of a hub, the other 99% of the time I couldn't care less.
I stuck a cassette on an alloy freehub, it fit snug. I stuck a cassette on a steel freehub, it fit snug too, tightened up with a torque wrench, it wasn't rocket science or any more steps involved with this simple task.
I've performed this task lots of times the same way and it always worked with the same end results? Also never felt any difference or knew that each time required an alternative method as I assume a Shimano HG freehub is a HG freehub and a cassette is a cassette?0 -
ugo.santalucia you may have a point. The alloy freehubs that notched on me were cheap, one was a Formula the other one was a Tensile Aerosilk 2 hub which I believe is produced in either Taiwan or similar?ugo.santalucia said:When I was building wheels, pretty much all the Novatec that came in for service or bearing replacement had deep dents in the freehub, irrespective of the cassette used.
Doing the lockring tight doesn't seem to help much either, you compress the sprockets against each other, but when you are on a hill, the amount of torque you put on the pedals will cause the sprocket to move and chew in the splines if it can do so.
Even the steel inserts didn't help much , surprisingly.
Obviously Shimano freehubs, either steel or titanium were intact, and so were the steel Hope freehubs. Everything else got dented to various extents, mostly depending on the size and power output of the rider, but also on the brand and presumably on the choice of alloy. Cheap and light Taiwanese hubs always the worst off
I will also concede that they are probably made of the cheapest alloy material and they could have been notched a lot worse if I was a stomper opposed to a spinner perhaps?
In my defence I didn't have much knowledge about the differences at the time, if I knew then what I know now, I would have chosen more wisely in the first place.0 -
Like Ugo said - not all freehubs are built to the same tolerances. Some cassettes will always be a loose fit on a particular freehub, while others will be a snug fit. So tightening it won't have much, if any, impact on how it sits on the hub. And a freehub with 'looser' tolerances will obviously promote more in terms of movement than one with a snug fit. So, 'fitment' is more than just tightening it, which is what I'm getting at. And regardless of how many time you personally have done this with no issue, the OP's experience is clearly different.reaperactual said:
+1 Eh? Lost you me there too imposter2.0.
I stuck a cassette on an alloy freehub, it fit snug. I stuck a cassette on a steel freehub, it fit snug too, tightened up with a torque wrench, it wasn't rocket science or any more steps involved with this simple task.
I've performed this task lots of times the same way and it always worked with the same end results? Also never felt any difference or knew that each time required an alternative method as I assume a Shimano HG freehub is a HG freehub and a cassette is a cassette?
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