2020 classics season thread

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  • You can get a bus from Oudenaarde out to Kwaremont - its is free and laid on by the organisers. We walked back to Oudenaarde from the Paterberg. It's a few miles but you pass through the village at the base of the Koppenberg if you are interested in seeing it.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Would like to point out that Boonen won his first monument at the same age MvdP will be this time round.
  • Flanders would be the making of Mathieu on the road this year. There's not a soul who could follow him up those last two bergs and over the top without dying a thousand deaths
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
    What's MvdP's record like in long races? Bonked severely at the worlds, though the weather was probably the main cause.
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  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217

    What's MvdP's record like in long races? Bonked severely at the worlds, though the weather was probably the main cause.

    He's only really ever ridden four; Gent-Wevelgem last year (4th), Flanders (4th), Amstel (1st) and the aforementioned Worlds.

    So not bad for a 25 year old without any top tier stage races or GTs in his legs.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,374
    The talent is obvious. The only real question is whether he can learn from mistakes or thinks he already knows it all. If the former is the case, I'd expect him to win 4 monuments minimum.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844

    What's MvdP's record like in long races? Bonked severely at the worlds, though the weather was probably the main cause.

    Top 5 in pretty much every 250+km bar worlds, no?
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,271
    m.r.m. said:

    The talent is obvious. The only real question is whether he can learn from mistakes or thinks he already knows it all. If the former is the case, I'd expect him to win 4 monuments minimum.

    Tch...all this hype. There no way he’s going to win more than 2 monuments this year - plus squeezing in victory at the Olympics, obvs...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Thing is it's not like he's a bottler. He's won pretty much every smaller race he's entered, and that's before you look at all the non-road stuff he's won.

    I can't tell you how much of a shame (for me, to be clear) I think it is he doesn't commit to the road properly.

    He's got to be a favourite for MSR, right?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217

    Thing is it's not like he's a bottler. He's won pretty much every smaller race he's entered, and that's before you look at all the non-road stuff he's won.

    I can't tell you how much of a shame (for me, to be clear) I think it is he doesn't commit to the road properly.

    He's got to be a favourite for MSR, right?

    I don't think he'll ever commit full-time to the road. I hope I'm wrong, but I get the impression that he gets a real sense of satisfaction from being one of the best in the world in three different cycling disciplines.

    Historically, the reason why cyclocross riders moved to the road was to make a decent wage, but he's not going to have to do that.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    edited February 2020
    A question I have; typically we have seen the top cyclo champs not achieve the same success when they move over to the road; I'm looking at Sven Nys, Stybar, Boom. All excellent riders no doubt, but I think we all expected more when they first tried their hand to road.

    So what makes MvdP and WvA different? There's been a lot of chat around how the efforts of cyclo are really additive to a road rider, so why have we not seen this before?

    Is it because the road efforts are different? Is it because cyclo is ridden differently? Or is it really nothing to do with that and it's just chance that two really top talents have happened to have come up through cyclo?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,189

    A question I have; typically we have seen the top cyclo champs not achieve the same success when they move over to the road; I'm looking at Sven Nys, Stybar, Boom. All excellent riders no doubt, but I think we all expected more when they first tried their hand to road.

    So what makes MvdP and WvA different? There's been a lot of chat around how the efforts of cyclo are really additive to a road rider, so why have we not seen this before?

    Is it because the road efforts are different? Is it because cyclo is ridden differently? Or is it really nothing to do with that and it's just chance that two really top talents have happened to have come up through cyclo?



    One difference is that MvdP and WvA can both sprint, which Stybar and Boom can't as far as I can remember. So they have a different way to win than the typical CX method of riding everyone off your wheel.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217

    A question I have; typically we have seen the top cyclo champs not achieve the same success when they move over to the road; I'm looking at Sven Nys, Stybar, Boom. All excellent riders no doubt, but I think we all expected more when they first tried their hand to road.

    So what makes MvdP and WvA different? There's been a lot of chat around how the efforts of cyclo are really additive to a road rider, so why have we not seen this before?

    Is it because the road efforts are different? Is it because cyclo is ridden differently? Or is it really nothing to do with that and it's just chance that two really top talents have happened to have come up through cyclo?

    My personal opinion is the latter, these are two top tier talents whose abilities were first seen in cyclocross, but are so talented that they can transfer that ability across to the road, almost seamlessly.

    I think Pidcock will be similar, but Iserbyt, who has been the former's major rival at U23 level the past few years isn't going to transfer his success to the road.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
    The thing with Pidock is that at 5'2" and 50kg (according to procyclingstats - you can take it with a pinch of salt, but he's not a big lad) he should really be a pure climber. There should be no way he's got the palmares he has in Cross, MTB, Track, TT. At Jnr or even u23 level most of these would be dominated by early developer "big lads". Yet at 20 years old he rode to a Cross worlds silver in the elite men, on a track that favoured pure power. The potential is enormous.
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  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,238

    The thing with Pidock is that at 5'2" and 50kg (according to procyclingstats - you can take it with a pinch of salt, but he's not a big lad) he should really be a pure climber. There should be no way he's got the palmares he has in Cross, MTB, Track, TT. At Jnr or even u23 level most of these would be dominated by early developer "big lads". Yet at 20 years old he rode to a Cross worlds silver in the elite men, on a track that favoured pure power. The potential is enormous.

    I mean presumably that means his climbing ability could be incredible as well, if he is that light and is able to put out that kind of power.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Tough to TT at that weight, mind.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,189

    Tough to TT at that weight, mind.

    Although he was a Junior World Champion at it, so there's hope for him
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,374

    m.r.m. said:

    The talent is obvious. The only real question is whether he can learn from mistakes or thinks he already knows it all. If the former is the case, I'd expect him to win 4 monuments minimum.

    Tch...all this hype. There no way he’s going to win more than 2 monuments this year - plus squeezing in victory at the Olympics, obvs...
    Dude I meant in his career. Not this year! o:):D
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217
    RichN95. said:

    Tough to TT at that weight, mind.

    Although he was a Junior World Champion at it, so there's hope for him
    The Junior Worlds TT is, arguably, more of an indicator of pro success than the Junior Road Race. It shows who's got the raw wattage to be able to cut it in the pro ranks.

    Pidcock's win came on a course that didn't really play to his strengths, which made it all the more impressive.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Ja but physics.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,593
    andyp said:

    RichN95. said:

    Tough to TT at that weight, mind.

    Although he was a Junior World Champion at it, so there's hope for him
    The Junior Worlds TT is, arguably, more of an indicator of pro success than the Junior Road Race. It shows who's got the raw wattage to be able to cut it in the pro ranks.

    Pidcock's win came on a course that didn't really play to his strengths, which made it all the more impressive.

    Ja but physics.

    That's the point. Junior Worlds TT, P-R Jnrs and P-R Espoirs. These aren't races a small bloke should be winning. Physics suggests he must have something exceptional in the tank.

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  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,047
    But the big engines don't get proper big until 23+, so being small is relatively less of impediment in the junior ranks because the big guys aren't quite there yet.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,047
    ^not saying he isn't exceptional though.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,217
    Mad_Malx said:

    But the big engines don't get proper big until 23+, so being small is relatively less of impediment in the junior ranks because the big guys aren't quite there yet.

    He was second at the elite CX worlds on a course that suited the big, powerful riders. Aged 20.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,496
    andyp said:

    Mad_Malx said:

    But the big engines don't get proper big until 23+, so being small is relatively less of impediment in the junior ranks because the big guys aren't quite there yet.

    He was second at the elite CX worlds on a course that suited the big, powerful riders. Aged 20.
    But cross is for small people, children.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    Cross shmoss.

    Plenty more knowledgeable people than me are touting him as the next big thing so the likelihood is that he is, but come on.

    Nibali was third in the under 20 TT in Zolder and, no doubt, he's one of the finest riders of his generation (i've put him in the top 3) but he's not a *great* TTer, and I think most of us would count that as a weakness, and he's a good 10-15 kilos heavier...!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,189
    edited February 2020

    Cross shmoss.

    Plenty more knowledgeable people than me are touting him as the next big thing so the likelihood is that he is, but come on.

    Nibali was third in the under 20 TT in Zolder and, no doubt, he's one of the finest riders of his generation (i've put him in the top 3) but he's not a *great* TTer, and I think most of us would count that as a weakness, and he's a good 10-15 kilos heavier...!



    Nobody expects him to be the next Tony Martin, but he's unlikely to be the next Andy Schleck either. He'll hold his own sufficiently, a bit like Nibali
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,141

    Would like to point out that Boonen won his first monument at the same age MvdP will be this time round.

    How many CX, MTB World Cups did Boonen win by age 25? None, because he was a pure road rider; MvdP is not, he's an 'all rounder' - people need to stop comparing him to pure road riders.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,844
    edited February 2020
    I meant more in terms the classics. It's not a like for like comparison?

    I don't really care about the other novelty sports, so I only see him doing road.

    I'm sure he's doing lovely things in muddy fields; it's not Flanders is it?
  • I meant more in terms the classics. It's not a like for like comparison?

    I don't really care about the other novelty sports, so I only see him doing road.

    I'm sure he's doing lovely things in muddy fields; it's not Flanders is it?

    Flanders it isn't. Aside from Koppenbergcross which is the very essence of Flanders, compressed into an hour.

    It's no picnic racing all winter while all the roadies have time off and then get back on with training camps in the sun either