Who is the (Men's) Rider of the Decade?

salsiccia1

Froome, no contest.

15 GTs ridden, one DSQ, two DNFs, the lowest result in the 12 he finished is a single 4th place. He won 7 of them, and was the holder of all three at the same time. And his Giro win came from the most spectacular long range solo attack in decades.

There are only 7 riders who have beaten him in a GT he's finished this decade, and two of them were teammates.

Only four riders have won more TdFs than him, and they're all legends of the sport.
He's in joint 4th place for GT wins, with Contador, Indurain and Coppi alongside him. Only Merckx, Hinault and Anquetil have more.

That's pretty conclusive.

Yep.

My 1-2-3:
1. Froome
2. Valverde
3. Sagan

m.r.m.

rick_chasey said:

Thing is for Valverde, you know he's in the hunt for the one dayer if he's starting. Every time. Same with Nibali. Same with GC with Nibali, and on the rare occasion he drops out you wouldn't bet against him picking up a proper stage win.

With Froome, again, if he's starting your GT, you gotta consider him as a favourite.

How is that different to Cancellara?

edit: why is the quote so large? Can't find a way to make the text smaller.

salsiccia1

BTW, point of order: the current decade ends 31st December 2020.

kingstongraham

salsiccia1 said:

BTW, point of order: the current decade ends 31st December 2020.

No it doesn't. Are you saying the 90s included the year 2000?

The answer to the subsequent question is - it doesn't matter about the first one.

A decade is a period of ten years.

m.r.m.

Well in that case, If Froome wins the TDF next year he gets it for me. If Sagan wins RvV-PR double, he moves up etc.

rick_chasey

I'm unsure of Sagan vs Nibali or Valverde.

I guess his domination of the green jersey means we don't rate it as a jersey anymore, and 3 worlds back-to-back is quite something.

Two monuments, is good. Worlds are a monument plus so I guess that counts as 5 in total, which is an impressive haul. Valverde has 5; 4 LBLs and a Worlds.

Nibali though. 4 GTs (including one of each!!!), 3 monuments (MSR and Lombady). I mean. Seriously. No rider is more versatile, and more relevant in any given race - even Sagan.

m.r.m.

Is true about Nibali on the one hand. On the other hand, would you ever pick him over Froome for a GT? How can he be over Froome then? I concede I'd probably rather have his palmares, because I love one day races more than GT's, but that isn't the question here. He can't be considered better than Froome this decade.

salsiccia1

kingstongraham said:

Are you saying the 90s included the year 2000?

The 90s is a decade. But ordinal decades of years start with 1 and end in 0, e.g. the second decade of this century started 1st Jan 2011 and will end 31st Dec 2020. And the OP did ask about the decade, and not the 2010s.

Opinion is divided, however...

kingstongraham

salsiccia1 said:

kingstongraham said:

Are you saying the 90s included the year 2000?

The 90s is a decade. But ordinal decades of years start with 1 and end in 0, e.g. the second decade of this century started 1st Jan 2011 and will end 31st Dec 2020. And the OP did ask about the decade, and not the 2010s.

Opinion is divided, however...

A century is a period of 100 years.

If you'd said "the twenty first century", that would make it a bit trickier to justify... but you didn't

blazing_saddles

Things I have learned from this thread:
2) We celebrated the new millennium a year early.
3) 1990 was in the 80s.






Oh and.........

Contador is really missing Frenchie, here.

phreak

rick_chasey said:

I'm unsure of Sagan vs Nibali or Valverde.

I guess his domination of the green jersey means we don't rate it as a jersey anymore, and 3 worlds back-to-back is quite something.

Two monuments, is good. Worlds are a monument plus so I guess that counts as 5 in total, which is an impressive haul. Valverde has 5; 4 LBLs and a Worlds.

Nibali though. 4 GTs (including one of each!!!), 3 monuments (MSR and Lombady). I mean. Seriously. No rider is more versatile, and more relevant in any given race - even Sagan.

Two of Valverde's monuments were last decade though, whereas nearly all of Nibali's successes have been this decade.

salsiccia1

Another thing I've learnt/remembered: the 2010s has had some immense racing. We've been well served, I think.

TheBigBean

salsiccia1 said:

kingstongraham said:

Are you saying the 90s included the year 2000?

The 90s is a decade. But ordinal decades of years start with 1 and end in 0, e.g. the second decade of this century started 1st Jan 2011 and will end 31st Dec 2020. And the OP did ask about the decade, and not the 2010s.

Opinion is divided, however...

I think the public view of that argument was lost last century. Or last millennium.

RichN95.

rick_chasey said:

Nibali though. 4 GTs (including one of each!!!), 3 monuments (MSR and Lombady). I mean. Seriously. No rider is more versatile, and more relevant in any given race - even Sagan.

Nibali has only ever won one race that either of Contador or Froome also finished (2013 T-A where they were all on the podium).
By contrast Froome has won stage eight races that Nibali also finished.
Versatility is overrated

rick_chasey

I don’t think comparing Nibali to Froome on GTs is fair as I think we’ve all established. Not really a contest.

I guess it’s also how much more you value a GT vs a one dayer.

No_Ta_Doctor

rick_chasey said:

I don’t think comparing Nibali to Froome on GTs is fair as I think we’ve all established. Not really a contest.

I guess it’s also how much more you value a GT vs a one dayer.

Well, let's look to the historical comparison.

Here's the list of multiple monuments winners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_monument#Most_monuments_wins

Note that you need to win 6 to move into the joint top ten (shared currently by 6 riders).

Nibali's 3 monuments puts him in joint 32nd place.
He's got 4 GTs, which is a handy joint 11th place (shared by 3 riders)
3 GTs would have got him joint 14th place.

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

salsiccia1

No_Ta_Doctor said:

rick_chasey said:

I don’t think comparing Nibali to Froome on GTs is fair as I think we’ve all established. Not really a contest.

I guess it’s also how much more you value a GT vs a one dayer.

Well, let's look to the historical comparison.

Here's the list of multiple monuments winners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_monument#Most_monuments_wins

Note that you need to win 6 to move into the joint top ten (shared currently by 6 riders).

Nibali's 3 monuments puts him in joint 32nd place.
He's got 4 GTs, which is a handy joint 11th place (shared by 3 riders)
3 GTs would have got him joint 14th place.

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

Is there a distinction to be had regarding rider vs racer? I love Froome, and he's definitely been my rider of the 2010s, but I would never say he was a better racer than Nibali.

bobmcstuff

salsiccia1 said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

rick_chasey said:

I don’t think comparing Nibali to Froome on GTs is fair as I think we’ve all established. Not really a contest.

I guess it’s also how much more you value a GT vs a one dayer.

Well, let's look to the historical comparison.

Here's the list of multiple monuments winners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_monument#Most_monuments_wins

Note that you need to win 6 to move into the joint top ten (shared currently by 6 riders).

Nibali's 3 monuments puts him in joint 32nd place.
He's got 4 GTs, which is a handy joint 11th place (shared by 3 riders)
3 GTs would have got him joint 14th place.

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

Is there a distinction to be had regarding rider vs racer? I love Froome, and he's definitely been my rider of the 2010s, but I would never say he was a better racer than Nibali.

Well, Froome's won more races, so surely he is better on that front too...

What you're really talking about is a subjective criteria for panache.

Lanterne_Rogue

salsiccia1 said:

Is there a distinction to be had regarding rider vs racer? I love Froome, and he's definitely been my rider of the 2010s, but I would never say he was a better racer than Nibali.

Hmm, Froome seems to really quite relish racing against people. It's just that unlike Nibali he's not often doing it from a position of weakness so doesn't have to try the long-range spectacular. Except that one time he did and, well, we saw what happened.

Carlton Kirby excitedly shouting that you're attacking on the descent whilst you gain precisely one second isn't being a great racer...

(I appreciate this is over simplistic and enjoy the counter arguments, honest! Subjective feel is surely the ONLY way to vote here. What else is greatness if not the way a rider exceeds their palmares?)

No_Ta_Doctor

Lanterne_Rogue said:

salsiccia1 said:

Is there a distinction to be had regarding rider vs racer? I love Froome, and he's definitely been my rider of the 2010s, but I would never say he was a better racer than Nibali.

(I appreciate this is over simplistic and enjoy the counter arguments, honest! Subjective feel is surely the ONLY way to vote here. What else is greatness if not the way a rider exceeds their palmares?)

Ah, philosophy.
I think there's probably a decent argument to be made that greatness is better defined as exceeding the other riders' palmares.

Lanterne_Rogue

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Ah, philosophy.

This feels libelous. I've never previously been accused of thinking, let alone philosophizing.

rick_chasey

No_Ta_Doctor said:

rick_chasey said:

I don’t think comparing Nibali to Froome on GTs is fair as I think we’ve all established. Not really a contest.

I guess it’s also how much more you value a GT vs a one dayer.

Well, let's look to the historical comparison.

Here's the list of multiple monuments winners:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_monument#Most_monuments_wins

Note that you need to win 6 to move into the joint top ten (shared currently by 6 riders).

Nibali's 3 monuments puts him in joint 32nd place.
He's got 4 GTs, which is a handy joint 11th place (shared by 3 riders)
3 GTs would have got him joint 14th place.

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

It's a while replying to this because I have written one out three times but have been thwarted by combo of the new format and train tunnels.

I wasn't really suggesting that a monument is equal to a GT. For a start there are 5 of them a year and two of them are a week apart and very similar in type. They're also short enough that luck can play a much bigger role - GT format *tends* to even out some of those random variances.

I would say though that I put quite a lot of stock in riders being able to be in the mix in both events. If we take the pro calendar to be a mixture of one dayers and GTs, then the specialists are just that, specialist.

Therefore, the variety of Nibali's wins and the fact he is more or less always a favourite for any major race he starts, either as a one week World Tour race, a GT (assuming he is arriving with some form), or a classic, elevates his palmares. Even his effort at the sharp end of a race like Flanders, where experience and local knowledge counts, were impressive (even if Terpstra dropped him like a sack of potatoes going uphill...). Similarly, he is so reliable that even if he's not in form you can count on him to be a legit stage winner at some point in a GT.

Valverde equally is someone who was in the hunt on multiple stages. In the earlier years he even won various types of bunch sprints.

That's why I think the gap between say Froome and Nibali or Valverde is not as big as the gap Froome has over them in GTs. Froome hasn't really demonstrated any of that class in any format that isn't stage racing.

By the nature of the calendar and what pro-cycling is about, you'd have to put Froome first. But I don't think the other two are as far behind.

RichN95.

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

It depends who you are. GTs tend to be won by the best rider. So if you are the best rider then it's easier to win a GT as they are more predictable.
On the other hand if you are a B or C list rider like Nuyens, Hayman, Iglinsky, Ciolek, Poels, Demare, Goss, Vansummeren, Jungels then a monument is within reach

RichN95.

rick_chasey said:

Therefore, the variety of Nibali's wins and the fact he is more or less always a favourite for any major race he starts, either as a one week World Tour race, a GT (assuming he is arriving with some form), or a classic, elevates his palmares.

Although if you want to talk about variety, it's worth noting that two thirds of Nibali's career victories were in Italy.

blazing_saddles

There are 3GTs a year and 5 monuments.
Ergo Rick is pulling random stats out of his botty.

blazing_saddles

RichN95. said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Ergo, GTs are far, far harder to win than monuments.

It depends who you are. GTs tend to be won by the best rider. So if you are the best rider then it's easier to win a GT as they are more predictable.
On the other hand if you are a B or C list rider like Nuyens, Hayman, Iglinsky, Ciolek, Poels, Demare, Goss, Vansummeren, Jungels then a monument is within reach

Even then you have B listers the likes of Pereiro, Hesjedal, Aru, Horner, Cobo etc winning GTs.

No_Ta_Doctor

Lanterne_Rogue said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Ah, philosophy.

This feels libelous. I've never previously been accused of thinking, let alone philosophizing.

Ah, armchair philosophy.

rick_chasey

blazing_saddles said:

There are 3GTs a year and 5 monuments.
Ergo Rick is pulling random stats out of his botty.

Eh?

rick_chasey

RichN95. said:

rick_chasey said:

Therefore, the variety of Nibali's wins and the fact he is more or less always a favourite for any major race he starts, either as a one week World Tour race, a GT (assuming he is arriving with some form), or a classic, elevates his palmares.

Although if you want to talk about variety, it's worth noting that two thirds of Nibali's career victories were in Italy.

This is a fair comment, though it's not like he hasn't won the biggest races outside of Italy.

LBL is really the only missing piece in his otherwise stellar palmares, though it's not like he hasn't been on the podium there.

I suspect a decent majority of Froome wins have been in France too, though happy to be proven wrong.

jimmythecuckoo

Sagan.

Just for riding than Cannondale up the back of that car and parking it on the roof rack.