Ban SUVs

Longshot

Daniel B wrote:

Longshot wrote:

twice as likely to roll in crashes and twice as likely to kill pedestrians

Twice as likely than what?

What is the likelihood in numbers? 1%-2%? 20%-40% One is significant, the other isn't.

Twice as = 200%
Twice as likely as a normal saloon / hatch / estate.

I thought that was fairly clear.

You missed my point.

What is the base number? What is the likelihood of a saloon/estate rolling over and in what circumstances?

veronese68

thecycleclinic wrote:

The modern world is rubbish innit. I may be turning into a grumpy old man.

Don't worry, you're not alone in this.

haydenm

thecycleclinic wrote:

Is be happy to see them banned too as they are rarely driven well. They are too wide for narrow country roads. They are bought because people feel safer in them and sod everyone else. Owning and using a car is a bit selfish which is one of the reasons why I refuse to buy a new one and dont drive much. owning and using a SUV is really selfish. The crossover cars are not so bad but are driven really slowly which may mean they are rubbish cars.

Car design peaked in the 80's, since then cars have not improved in my book. Being faster,or morefuel office t is not really better. They ride more harshly, have wheels which are too easily damged,far too complex and you cant see where you going in them properly.The visibility in modern cars is truly rubbish.

all modern are have got to big. A Ford focus is similar is size to my 31 year old 5 series. It might be wider in fact. The wider cars get the less there drivers seem to know where in the road there car is.

I find the opposite personally, it makes it much easier to get off the road when you need to get past on a single track road. Nothing more infuriating than a mid-range German saloon owner not wanting to get a splash of mud on his alloys...

Moonbiker

The acticle links to theese figures on rollover

https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/studies/LTV/



Data is USA and old so maybe abit dishonest for modern UK cars

Probably hasn't changed much though as SUV has higher centre of gravity thats why they handle worse on corners etc

Tashman

HaydenM wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

They are too wide for narrow country roads.

I find the opposite personally, it makes it much easier to get off the road when you need to get past on a single track road. Nothing more infuriating than a mid-range German saloon owner not wanting to get a splash of mud on his alloys...

You're the exception there in my experience. Those around the lanes here wouldn't dream of getting their vehicle dirty by getting the wheels actually off the road!

Moonbiker

Yeah they atract a certain type of driver who never reverse either and expect anyone they meat to drive in verge whilst they sit on the road.

haydenm

Tashman wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

They are too wide for narrow country roads.

I find the opposite personally, it makes it much easier to get off the road when you need to get past on a single track road. Nothing more infuriating than a mid-range German saloon owner not wanting to get a splash of mud on his alloys...

You're the exception there in my experience. Those around the lanes here wouldn't dream of getting their vehicle dirty by getting the wheels actually off the road!

Yeah I guess it depends what you are used to doing in your SUV. I make a whole lot less effort to get right into the hedge if the guy is in a white ranger rover

step83

HaydenM wrote:

Tashman wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

They are too wide for narrow country roads.

I find the opposite personally, it makes it much easier to get off the road when you need to get past on a single track road. Nothing more infuriating than a mid-range German saloon owner not wanting to get a splash of mud on his alloys...

You're the exception there in my experience. Those around the lanes here wouldn't dream of getting their vehicle dirty by getting the wheels actually off the road!

Yeah I guess it depends what you are used to doing in your SUV. I make a whole lot less effort to get right into the hedge if the guy is in a white ranger rover

Or an Evoque

singleton

I used to drive a VW Touareg V6 Diesel and really liked it.
I now drive an A6 Estate 2.0 diesel and I really like it as well.
It is as big, as fast, as comfortable, as capable, a bit quieter and 50% better on fuel with lower emissions.

Should they be banned? Probably not - but they should have to comply with safety regulations and all inefficient cars should suffer from worse taxes than they currently do.

On the same argument, a big engined supercar should also cost a fortune in road tax - and I mean multiple thousands per year.

thistle_

Singleton wrote:

On the same argument, a big engined supercar should also cost a fortune in road tax - and I mean multiple thousands per year.

Isn't the idea that you pay for that through fuel taxes? Big engine supercar uses much more fuel per mile?

haydenm

Singleton wrote:

I used to drive a VW Touareg V6 Diesel and really liked it.
I now drive an A6 Estate 2.0 diesel and I really like it as well.
It is as big, as fast, as comfortable, as capable, a bit quieter and 50% better on fuel with lower emissions.

If for whatever reason company or tax policy changed I would consider an A4 allroad to replace the Amarok. What else can you do hundreds of miles in in comfort but also do OK on forest roads with some decent tyres (whilst also having a decent carrying capacity)? Most 4x4s have terrible emissions so I'd get hammered on tax to the point where I'd need a £5k payrise to cover it.

step83

http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle ... 2.430_.htm

Pretty capable offroad too, They are out of stock of Unimogs and tracked vehicles currently though.

tangled_metal

I've been in a Sierra (long time ago now) and were were going over Wrynose Pass one January. Light layer of snow but perfectly safe if you stay on the tracks if cars in the snow.

Since we were going up hill three courtesy action would be for the very expensive and capable range rover to pull into the passing point on his side of the road because they could just roll downhill to get going again. So it was with much annoyance that we watched the idiot drive right past it and sit in the middle of the road until we moved. So we had to roll back down the hill to the passing point even further away on his side of the road to let him past. Setting off we were wheel spinning badly. So we had to roll back onto the tyre tracks to move forward.

Much later I was driving through the lakes on deeper snow. I took great pleasure in seeing abandoned range rovers, 4x4s and SUVs. Abandoned not because the vehicle couldn't get up the snow covered hills but because the drivers couldn't drive them up there.

step83

Tangled Metal wrote:

I've been in a Sierra (long time ago now) and were were going over Wrynose Pass one January. Light layer of snow but perfectly safe if you stay on the tracks if cars in the snow.

Since we were going up hill three courtesy action would be for the very expensive and capable range rover to pull into the passing point on his side of the road because they could just roll downhill to get going again. So it was with much annoyance that we watched the idiot drive right past it and sit in the middle of the road until we moved. So we had to roll back down the hill to the passing point even further away on his side of the road to let him past. Setting off we were wheel spinning badly. So we had to roll back onto the tyre tracks to move forward.

Much later I was driving through the lakes on deeper snow. I took great pleasure in seeing abandoned range rovers, 4x4s and SUVs. Abandoned not because the vehicle couldn't get up the snow covered hills but because the drivers couldn't drive them up there.

Also quite likely they had "normal road tyres" not actual off road tyres, I got picked up years ago by a works hire car which was a Subaru Forester. Flat section of road which well compacted snow I watched him brake and merrily slide past me laughing his head off as some moron had fitted normal summer tyres to it. The drive to work that day was an absolute hoot though but the tracking was somewhat ruined after.

So yes they may well be in a 4X4 but if they have standard summer tyres like most people use in the UK, they don't have a hope.

haydenm

I was going to say, it's all about tyres. I'd take a little fiesta with snow tyres over an SUV with road tyres even with the very very capable off road systems in modern Land/Range Rovers. Often off road tyres aren't specific to snow tyres and I can't be arsed buying snow tyres for a few days a year. I do have snow chains for driving in the alps though

singleton

For UK roads, you won't need 4wd - just as others have said, get some decent year round tyres.
All you need is some cross-climate tyres
https://youtu.be/2cgtmmtsqFA

daniel_b

Singleton wrote:

For UK roads, you won't need 4wd - just as others have said, get some decent year round tyres.
All you need is some cross-climate tyres
https://youtu.be/2cgtmmtsqFA

Cross Climate + tyres are awesome.

DeVlaeminck

thecycleclinic wrote:

Is be happy to see them banned too as they are rarely driven well. They are too wide for narrow country roads. They are bought because people feel safer in them and sod everyone else. Owning and using a car is a bit selfish which is one of the reasons why I refuse to buy a new one and dont drive much. owning and using a SUV is really selfish. The crossover cars are not so bad but are driven really slowly which may mean they are rubbish cars.

Car design peaked in the 80's, since then cars have not improved in my book. Being faster,or morefuel office t is not really better. They ride more harshly, have wheels which are too easily damged,far too complex and you cant see where you going in them properly.The visibility in modern cars is truly rubbish.

all modern are have got to big. A Ford focus is similar is size to my 31 year old 5 series. It might be wider in fact. The wider cars get the less there drivers seem to know where in the road there car is.

All of this. We actually have a newish x-trail, it's 2 wheel drive so not sure it qualifies as an SUV, I'm not that into cars and the other half chose it. I actually hate it, it's too big, visibility is poor, I can't be arsed to work out what half the things on the dashboard mean. It has 4 positions for the headlights - what is wrong with on and off ffs. My daughter is in Montreal studying and I use her VW Up in preference 90% of the time it's just more suited to urban driving. The worst thing about the X-Trail is for all its size it's less practical in terms of carrying bikes, dogs etc than the Doblo it replaced.

thistle_

Tangled Metal wrote:

Since we were going up hill three courtesy action would be for the very expensive and capable range rover to pull into the passing point on his side of the road because they could just roll downhill to get going again. So it was with much annoyance that we watched the idiot drive right past it and sit in the middle of the road until we moved.

The Highway Code used to say something on the lines of give way to whoever is coming uphill for this reason.
However people drive past passing places straight at you on flat roads all the time and expect you to reverse for miles* to go back to one, they're just idiots.

*may be an exaggeration.

tangled_metal

Step83 wrote:

Also quite likely they had "normal road tyres" not actual off road tyres, I got picked up years ago by a works hire car which was a Subaru Forester. Flat section of road which well compacted snow I watched him brake and merrily slide past me laughing his head off as some moron had fitted normal summer tyres to it. The drive to work that day was an absolute hoot though but the tracking was somewhat ruined after.

So yes they may well be in a 4X4 but if they have standard summer tyres like most people use in the UK, they don't have a hope.

Actually normal summer tyres were ok it was only a dusting but more in the passing points. The issue was more about considerate driving. It's easier to roll out of a passing spot downhill than driving out uphill if there is a potential for slipping.

Being a rear wheel car the Sierra struggled my later astray was actually very good on snow even with summer tyres. Not ideal but manageable because the skinny tyres dug into the snow and gripped. Proper snow tyres would have been better.

My point about the SUV drivers stands, he was a classic case of lack of tthought for others.

photonic69

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Since we were going up hill three courtesy action would be for the very expensive and capable range rover to pull into the passing point on his side of the road because they could just roll downhill to get going again. So it was with much annoyance that we watched the idiot drive right past it and sit in the middle of the road until we moved.

The Highway Code used to say something on the lines of give way to whoever is coming uphill for this reason.
However people drive past passing places straight at you on flat roads all the time and expect you to reverse for miles* to go back to one, they're just idiots.

*may be an exaggeration.

Rules:

155.Single-track roads. These are only wide enough for one vehicle. They may have special
passing places. If you see a vehicle coming towards you, or the driver behind wants to
overtake, pull into a passing place on your left, or wait opposite a passing place on your
right. Give way to vehicles coming uphill whenever you can. If necessary, reverse until
you reach a passing place to let the other vehicle pass. Slow down when passing
pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders.

tangled_metal

Daniel B wrote:

Singleton wrote:

For UK roads, you won't need 4wd - just as others have said, get some decent year round tyres.
All you need is some cross-climate tyres
https://youtu.be/2cgtmmtsqFA

Cross Climate + tyres are awesome.

Now sold from stock in common sizes at Kwik Fit. Not many places carried them.

One car mag last year rated 6 best winter tyres, two summer tyres and the cross climate + tyres. In half the tests the crossclimate + tyres scored highest as tested in the Scandinavian tyre testing facilities most car and tyre brands use. Proper tests using established test standards.

Put simply they're not far behind proper winter tyres but they're still not legal across parts of Europe from October on.

I'm actually looking into whether a respected independent tyre garage near me can store the other set of tyres for my van. If they will then we'll probably get winter tyres. If not when next replacing them we'll get three crossclimate+ ones instead.

Btw the winter tyres also outperformed summer tyres most of the times in the wet performance tests iirc. Certainly the all season ones did. So they're better for more than the few days of snow.

daniel_b

Tangled Metal wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

Singleton wrote:

For UK roads, you won't need 4wd - just as others have said, get some decent year round tyres.
All you need is some cross-climate tyres
https://youtu.be/2cgtmmtsqFA

Cross Climate + tyres are awesome.

Now sold from stock in common sizes at Kwik Fit. Not many places carried them.

One car mag last year rated 6 best winter tyres, two summer tyres and the cross climate + tyres. In half the tests the crossclimate + tyres scored highest as tested in the Scandinavian tyre testing facilities most car and tyre brands use. Proper tests using established test standards.

Put simply they're not far behind proper winter tyres but they're still not legal across parts of Europe from October on.

I'm actually looking into whether a respected independent tyre garage near me can store the other set of tyres for my van. If they will then we'll probably get winter tyres. If not when next replacing them we'll get three crossclimate+ ones instead.

Btw the winter tyres also outperformed summer tyres most of the times in the wet performance tests iirc. Certainly the all season ones did. So they're better for more than the few days of snow.

I'll be a bit annoyed if that is the case, as part of the reason I bought them is due to the fact I had read they were approved for such conditions, and as my brother lives in a ski resort in northern Italy, and I sometimes visit in February.

These are excerts from articles I found:

EVO Magazine wrote:

Michelin has made the bold decision to develop a summer tyre that can also work in winter. Called ‘Cross Climate’, the new tyre mixes the best of summer and winter tyre technology. And now, we've had the chance to test the tyre back-to-back against winter, all-season and summer rubber - on an indoor ski slope. But first, let's look over the Cross Climate.

Don’t be fooled into thinking this is another all-season tyre. Cross Climates are strictly labelled as summer rubber that borrow tread structure and compound chemistry from their winter counterparts. This enables them to receive official winter certification, so they can legally be used during winter in countries that enforce such tyre regulations.

Automotiveworld.com wrote:

The new MICHELIN CrossClimate is the fusion of summer and winter tyre technology – technologies which until now were thought to be incompatible.

The new MICHELIN CrossClimate delivers safety with simplicity and economy. The motorist can drive throughout the year, regardless of weather variations, with just one set of tyres: MICHELIN CrossClimate.

The MICHELIN CrossClimate is a truly innovative tyre as it adapts to different climatic situations. It is the only tyre which combines the advantages of summer tyres and winter tyres.

It brakes in short distances on dry ground.
It has the highest European label rating of “A” for wet braking.
It is certified for winter use, identifiable by the 3PMSF (3-Peak Mountain Snow Flake) symbol on the sidewall of the tyre. This means it can even be used in countries where fitting winter tyres is a legal requirement.

Moonbiker

The UK is almost unique in Northern Europe in that all season and winter tyres are not mandatory over the colder months. As a consequence of this, each and every time there is a little snow or ice, the country grinds to a halt.

https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament- ... %3Acontrol

Team Sky sponsor Ineos is supposedly to making a new 4X4 thats more utility not chelsea


https://ineosgrenadier.com/

orraloon

DeVlaeminck wrote:

All of this. We actually have a newish x-trail, it's 2 wheel drive so not sure it qualifies as an SUV, I'm not that into cars and the other half chose it. I actually hate it, it's too big, visibility is poor, I can't be arsed to work out what half the things on the dashboard mean. It has 4 positions for the headlights - what is wrong with on and off ffs. My daughter is in Montreal studying and I use her VW Up in preference 90% of the time it's just more suited to urban driving. The worst thing about the X-Trail is for all its size it's less practical in terms of carrying bikes, dogs etc than the Doblo it replaced.

2 years back I had a hire car X-trail in S Africa for 3 weeks. What a crock of sh1t. 2 wheel drive version. Crap traction, crap performance. This 'looks big' body with minimal space inside. It even struggled to get up the entrance slope to one of our hotels, as in nope 1st gear ain't doing it, roll back down rev it up and take a run. Why do people, looking at you buy this sort of sh1t?

And another hire vehicle Uk this time turned out to be a Vauxhall Mokka. Is like a Corsa on 'roids but without the capabilities of the little 'un. Baffled as to why anyone would shell out proper money on something like that.

[/clarkson mode]

cycleclinic

Tashman wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

They are too wide for narrow country roads.

I find the opposite personally, it makes it much easier to get off the road when you need to get past on a single track road. Nothing more infuriating than a mid-range German saloon owner not wanting to get a splash of mud on his alloys...

You're the exception there in my experience. Those around the lanes here wouldn't dream of getting their vehicle dirty by getting the wheels actually off the road!

All I know is when I'm driving my old BMW I ha e to go off road so the SUV can pass. Its also funny watcthing suv drive off road to a mtb event on the big alloys slowly because well the shit at off road and then there me in old bmw but with tyres that are not painted on being able to drive without fear of cracking my alloys.

Frankly Most modern cars are shit and have wheels that make the ride harsh and in practical for the real world roads. Also.modern cars suspension is way to stiff.

Is that grumpy enough for ya all.

haydenm

I might get a 2005 Impreza to avoid all this

tangled_metal

It seems I'm wrong, cross climate plus are full 3pmsf winter tyres. It's misleading to call them all season because the tradition is for this type to be summer tires with a bit more siping.

So how do they manage it? Summer tyres wear slower than winter ones usually. So to really be winter legal and summer there seems to be a need for rubber that's somehow softer for winter but not wearing as quickly. Sounds impossible.

I know there's some hiking boots/ shoes that have normal rubber but with areas of softer winter rubber for cold weather grip. I can't see it working with tyres. Surely the soft, winter rubber would wear leaving the harder, summer rubber? It seems to me these must have a flaw. It isn't winter performance so perhaps wear rate in summer is it.

singleton

I have these on my fwd Audi A6 Avant - and I suspect that they will not last as long as summer tyres.
I've just decided in the great scheme of things to accept a bit lower mileage for the convenience and safety.
They might still be cheaper than buying 2 sets of wheels / tyres and paying someone to store the ones not in use.

singleton

thecycleclinic wrote:

Frankly Most modern cars are shoot and have wheels that make the ride harsh and in practical for the real world roads. Also.modern cars suspension is way to stiff.

In fairness, I think that's the spec people choose.
My Audi has 17" wheels and "standard" suspension - but even so it has 55 profile tyres which was considered to be "low profile" back in the 80's.

Most Audis (and others) that I see on the road have lowered sports suspension and 20" wheels. They probably look nice in the showroom, but they don't work well on British roads.