Increasing average speed
ridgeway_swiss
Posts: 146
I guess like many i have the chance to have longer rides at the weekends and anything during the week needs to be kept a bit shorter, especially now with the nights drawing in. That being the case i try to get out twice a week after work for around an hour or so, been managing that for the last 6wks now. So i started to use some regular routes and seem to have stuck on one quite consistently and of course that's been great to be able to measure myself against.
So here's my question: how on earth do i increase my average speed ???
Current weekday route is 31km with 400m of climb in it, certainly the wind conditions make quite a difference but i cab't seem to get above 29kmh average and would dearly love to break that 30kmh average barrier
My worst result has been 27.20kmh when i was clearly tired and it was quite windy and best was 29.10kmh, but most around 28.50kmh.
So what do i need to do to increase my average speed ?
So here's my question: how on earth do i increase my average speed ???
Current weekday route is 31km with 400m of climb in it, certainly the wind conditions make quite a difference but i cab't seem to get above 29kmh average and would dearly love to break that 30kmh average barrier
My worst result has been 27.20kmh when i was clearly tired and it was quite windy and best was 29.10kmh, but most around 28.50kmh.
So what do i need to do to increase my average speed ?
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Comments
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Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.0
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Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.0 -
My usual riding pattern is 100k plus on decent days weather wise. When the weather is a bit iffy or I have chores to do. I will go out for an hour or so and do intervals. These are 20 seconds on 40 seconds off x 5 2 minutes easy the repeat 3 sets in total or 1 minute on 1 minute off x 10 or 15 secs on 15 secs of x 3 x 5 x 7 x 9 x 11 1 minute between sets.
I find that these enable to keep a reasonable average speed on the longer rides.0 -
Webboo wrote:My usual riding pattern is 100k plus on decent days weather wise. When the weather is a bit iffy or I have chores to do. I will go out for an hour or so and do intervals. These are 20 seconds on 40 seconds off x 5 2 minutes easy the repeat 3 sets in total or 1 minute on 1 minute off x 10 or 15 secs on 15 secs of x 3 x 5 x 7 x 9 x 11 1 minute between sets.
I find that these enable to keep a reasonable average speed on the longer rides.
thank you for that info, really appreciate that.0 -
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.0 -
landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?0 -
As has been pointed out, the best way to increase your average speed from a fitness perspective is to improve your aerobic fitness. A variety of training sessions ridden consistently over a period of time will help with this but in general, 2-3 tempo rides per week, anything from 30-90 mins should help with this. If you want to get a feel for a tempo type effort but don't have power or HR, work on the basis of the kind of ride where you would struggle to hold a conversation with someone, something that takes a bit of concentration to maintain the effort.0
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Can't offer much but I now try to maintain riding either on the drops or hoods 90 degree bent elbows so I get low down and aero for most of the ride.
I use a Power meter, HR etc but never ride with Average speed displayed on my Garmin I just go fairly hard for all of the ride.
I asked recently on here what a Hard ride level was as an Intensity Factor after my ride and was told It needs to be 0.9 or above. That's some effort to be honest but when you do achieve that the speed does go up slightly.
Absolutely Gun it on the descents so as to pick the speed up straight away and never coast just push on.
I used to ride a 17.5 mile circular and was trying to get it done inside 1 hour. Managed it eventually but its hard work. Ive moved onto a slightly longer training route since going 17.5mph average.
Or if you just want to crack the speed go out in a group ride with a similar fitness level of other riders as I find chain gangs can push your average speed up no end. ( its very different going Solo !!! ).0 -
Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?
Whilst cycling is aerobic, stronger quads, glutes and core will improve your speed, especially on the uphill and headwind zones.0 -
landmannnn wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?
Whilst cycling is aerobic, stronger quads, glutes and core will improve your speed, especially on the uphill and headwind zones.
No they won't. That's nonsense. There's no evidence for any of that. The only thing that will improve your speed over a rolling circuit like that is going to be a better-developed aerobic capacity and sustainable power output (and maybe getting more aero). Nothing to do with increased strength.0 -
Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?
Whilst cycling is aerobic, stronger quads, glutes and core will improve your speed, especially on the uphill and headwind zones.
No they won't. That's nonsense. There's no evidence for any of that. The only thing that will improve your speed over a rolling circuit like that is going to be a better-developed aerobic capacity and sustainable power output (and maybe getting more aero). Nothing to do with increased strength.
Next time your watching the peloton pass you by just take a look at those thighs and then tell me they aren't doing strength work.0 -
john1967 wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?
Whilst cycling is aerobic, stronger quads, glutes and core will improve your speed, especially on the uphill and headwind zones.
No they won't. That's nonsense. There's no evidence for any of that. The only thing that will improve your speed over a rolling circuit like that is going to be a better-developed aerobic capacity and sustainable power output (and maybe getting more aero). Nothing to do with increased strength.
Next time your watching the peloton pass you by just take a look at those thighs and then tell me they aren't doing strength work.
Yeah, Froomey's got massive thighs. Are you new to cycling or do you just not understand the difference between strength and power?0 -
In physics. Power equals Torque times RPM.
Torque, in this case is the force applied to the crank, ie strength.
RPM is cadence.
So more power is produced by increasing RPM and/or increasing force.0 -
landmannnn wrote:In physics. Power equals Torque times RPM.
Torque, in this case is the force applied to the crank, ie strength.
RPM is cadence.
So more power is produced by increasing RPM and/or increasing force.
Indeed, but 'strength' and 'force' do not necessarily equate either. And the ability to apply force repeatedly over a sustained period comes from the body's aerobic pathways and has little or nothing to do with typical 1RM physical strength. Endurance cycling is a low strength sport, to the point where almost anyone has the strength to turn pedals at the required rate. What many lack, however, is the ability to sustain it. This really is basic stuff - here's a link to last year's thread on the same/similar topic (there's plenty of others)..
viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=13099834&hilit=leg+strength+gym&start=600 -
Imposter wrote:john1967 wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?
Whilst cycling is aerobic, stronger quads, glutes and core will improve your speed, especially on the uphill and headwind zones.
No they won't. That's nonsense. There's no evidence for any of that. The only thing that will improve your speed over a rolling circuit like that is going to be a better-developed aerobic capacity and sustainable power output (and maybe getting more aero). Nothing to do with increased strength.
Next time your watching the peloton pass you by just take a look at those thighs and then tell me they aren't doing strength work.
Yeah, Froomey's got massive thighs. Are you new to cycling or do you just not understand the difference between strength and power?
Chris Froome, Men's Health 2018
"I train on the bike and I get into the gym five times a week, mainly to work on my core stability, leg strength, and some back work. A lot of squats and lunges, no heavy weights – more about building strength than muscle. We also weave some yoga postures into our stretching."
[url]Link[https://www.menshealth.com/uk/fitness/a754476/mh-interview-chris-froome//url][/url]0 -
Tricky tree wrote:Chris Froome, Men's Health 2018
"I train on the bike and I get into the gym five times a week, mainly to work on my core stability, leg strength, and some back work. A lot of squats and lunges, no heavy weights – more about building strength than muscle. We also weave some yoga postures into our stretching."
[url]Link[https://www.menshealth.com/uk/fitness/a754476/mh-interview-chris-froome//url][/url]
Lol. This is like groundhog day. That article was discussed in the older thread I linked to - on page 3. Have a read. The section of the article, as quoted, contains a lot of contradictions.0 -
There are any number of ways to skin a cat and the same applies to improving fitness.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:So what do i need to do to increase my average speed ?
Firstly, ignore the bickering over gym work. Gym work may help (I believe the evidence is mixed) but it should not take priority over time on the bike.
Polarised training is popular at the moment. 80:20 ratio between long, steady rides and high intensity intervals. However, there is also potential for gain in tempo sessions, those around 90% of your FTP (which is the effort level you can just sustain for one hour). Do 2 x 20 minutes at tempo within a 2+ hour steady ride, riding steady in between. Try to find a flatter route and focus on optimising your pedal stroke and cadence, also breathing deeply and evenly. No slacking off or freewheeling in the interval. As you get fitter work up to 3 x 20 minutes and/or shorten the rest period between them.
If you want to keep riding your circuit then I'd be inclined to beast it on the uphill sections and ride really easy on the downhills to recover. Another thing to try is to find a stretch where you can do a 5-minute efforts a good step above the pace you'd ride a 10-mile TT. Then ride easy for 5 minutes and repeat. Do this 4 times, have 20 minutes really easy to recover then try to do 4 more. The first couple might feel a bit easy but if you're doing it right then the later ones certainly won't! To begin with you may not be able to sustain the effort for more than 1 or 2 of the second set. That's OK, the 4 is a target to aim for.
Another session I've been recommended to imrpove speed in short time trials is to find a clear section of road with no junctions or interruptions where you can ride 1 mile flat out. Turn round, ride back, repeat. You may be able to do this, say, 4 or 5 times to begin with. Work up to 9.
But there is no single interval duration, session type or training plan that has 'the' answer. As a result it is tempting to try a bit of everything but that is unlikely to work. Consistency is the key, so you need to keep doing whatever mix of sessions or rides that you choose. Real improvement will come with months of regular training, not weeks.Aspire not to have more, but to be more.0 -
Simon E wrote:Firstly, ignore the bickering over gym work. Gym work may help (I believe the evidence is mixed) but it should not take priority over time on the bike.
I don't see any 'bickering' - just discussion, along with the rebuttal of the same old myths and misunderstandings about 'weights making you faster'. Talking of which, you say gym work 'may' help. How will it help?
To the best of my knowledge, strength training is generally regarded as useful for improving the initial force required for a track standing start (such as in a team pursuit, team sprint, IP or kilo TT scenario) or potentially providing you with a bit of a 'kick' in a bunch sprint - however none of those scenarios seem relevant to the OP.
So to summarise, I don't know what you mean by 'gym work' and I don't know what you mean by the vague claim that it 'may help'..??0 -
I've called it bickering, you can call it what you like.Imposter wrote:I don't see any 'bickering' - just discussion, along with the rebuttal of the same old myths and misunderstandings about 'weights making you faster'. Talking of which, you say gym work 'may' help. How will it help?
Some people say gym work (weights) can be beneficial, others disagree, as this thread shows. I don't have a strong opinion or relevant experience. What will help is structured training on the bike so I'd prefer to focus on suggestions for that.Aspire not to have more, but to be more.0 -
Gym work / resistance training / weights are essential for better overall health, especially as you age and muscle strength declines. Resistance training strengthens bones as well as muscles. Since cycling is non-weight bearing, bone density in cyclists (especially the spine) is renowned to be poor. Working on core strength can be beneficial for cyclists too. Also redressing muscle imbalances caused by the limited action of cycling is important- stretching and strengthening tight hamstrings / hip flexors.
All of the above might not make you faster on a bike but it'll sure make you stronger, healthier and possibly more comfortable / aero on the bike - which I can see no negative.0 -
Simon E wrote:Some people say gym work (weights) can be beneficial, others disagree, as this thread shows.
Advocating gym work, in the context of the thread topic, is a bit like arguing that the world is flat when all the evidence points to it being round. The evidence for strength work being beneficial for improving endurance cycling performance is at best unproven, as a review of the available studies would demonstrate. Those who claim it is beneficial are either ignoring the evidence, or (more likely in this case) have not understood the issue. So your claim that it 'may' help does not exactly move things on.0 -
You're obviously 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong.Imposter wrote:Simon E wrote:Some people say gym work (weights) can be beneficial, others disagree, as this thread shows.
Advocating gym work, in the context of the thread topic, is a bit like arguing that the world is flat when all the evidence points to it being round. The evidence for strength work being beneficial for improving endurance cycling performance is at best unproven, as a review of the available studies would demonstrate. Those who claim it is beneficial are either ignoring the evidence, or (more likely in this case) have not understood the issue. So your claim that it 'may' help does not exactly move things on.
:roll:
And I didn't advocate gym work.Aspire not to have more, but to be more.0 -
Simon E wrote:
You're obviously 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong.Imposter wrote:Simon E wrote:Some people say gym work (weights) can be beneficial, others disagree, as this thread shows.
Advocating gym work, in the context of the thread topic, is a bit like arguing that the world is flat when all the evidence points to it being round. The evidence for strength work being beneficial for improving endurance cycling performance is at best unproven, as a review of the available studies would demonstrate. Those who claim it is beneficial are either ignoring the evidence, or (more likely in this case) have not understood the issue. So your claim that it 'may' help does not exactly move things on.
:roll:
And I didn't advocate gym work.
I never said you did - but you did say that it 'may' work, without explaining why or how. And it's not about 'me being right and others being wrong' - it's simply about what the available evidence tells us.0 -
Depends what's meant by "Strength Training":
To a lot of people (esp runners, who are often well into this) Strength Training means core strength, muscles supporting joints etc - basically what @jermas is talking about. This isn't going to make you significantly faster, but probably will reduce your chance of getting injured. One reason runners are into this is that they get injured all the time; the constraints imposed by a bike mean it's a fair bit harder to injure yourself without falling off, but if you're on and off the bike (cyclocross) or holding unnatural positions (time trialling), it will help more. It's not going to help you get more power down, but it might help you do it more comfortably and/or without getting injured.
Anything working on the strength of your main cycling muscles is going to be of limited benefit, and one easy way to visualise this is to think about how strong your legs already are. Are you strong enough to push down on one pedal hard enough to lift yourself off the saddle? Assuming you are, how are you going to apply a greater downward force when the only thing available to work against is your weight? Unless you're hauling on the bars like a track sprinter, there's just no way to use that extra strength; in normal riding it's very difficult to push down on the pedals with more than your body weight, and most of the time you're not pushing anything like that hard.
Another way to look at it: Assume you're doing 300W, which should be enough to get most riders up to 25mph on the flat. Additionally, let's assume you're that guy off the Watchfinder ad, and you ride everywhere at 60rpm. That equates to a torque of just under 48Nm, which (assuming 175mm cranks) means your average downward force on the pedals is ~280N, or 28Kg (or 14Kg at 120rpm). Assuming you're capable of walking up a flight of stairs there's no way you don't already have more than enough leg strength to apply a downward force of 28kg, so there's no benefit whatsoever to making your legs stronger unless you actually are a track sprinter. Even for a track sprinter, it's only really any use for the first few seconds when you're spinning a massive gear up from zero RPM, and you need a really strong upper body position to make it work.Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
In reply to OP: join a club or regular twice weekly bunch ride and try to either hang on or drop them, depending on your fitness. Or start road racing/TTing. You will get fitter and faster. Highly recommended to ride with others.0
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You won’t get fitter if you get dropped in the first mile or first lap
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I thought it was about time for one...Imposter wrote:landmannnn wrote:
Probably better to do a mix of interval training/long runs and some strength work.Ridgeway Swiss wrote:Webboo wrote:Stop riding the circuit as a race, trying to beat your best time. Do some intervals, then try your circuit.
OK that sounds reasonable, maybe i should switch to intervals for say the next 2wks and then see the effect.
2 weeks is quite ambitious to see any measurable improvement.
"strength work" - you mean stuff like squats and deadlifts? What will that achieve in an almost-exclusively aerobic effort?0 -
Brian - what time do you call this? You can take the next one..
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I was just trying to get Coach Ferg's number... that was eight years ago!Imposter wrote:Brian - what time do you call this? You can take the next one..0 -
And this one was a little epic, with Alex Simmons' (mostly) patient contributions viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=127963940
