Things you have recently learnt
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Well given he got exiled from German unis for making that case for a decade or so (hence ending up teaching in the UK) it hardly went down well in Germany either0
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A gulag, sorry residential school run by Kaflik kiddy fiddlers. Whodathunk there would be bodies? Humans can be total a-holes.morstar said:Similar vein.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530
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The whole residential school thing is seen, quite rightly, as a national shame in Canada.morstar said:Similar vein.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-572915300 -
The challenge in Germany is the state has set a precedent for compensation to families of victims of genocides committed by the German state with the Jews, so Herero and Nama obviously would like the same.
German state is not doing that, so the colonial mentality is still there.0 -
In what way is the current generation of any people responsible for Genocide dating back say, 75 years or more?
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Do you think there should be a time limit?pinno said:In what way is the current generation of any people responsible for Genocide dating back say, 75 years or more?
So basically because Germany decided to admit they had in fact committed genocide much longer after the fact vs the Holocaust doesn’t have to pay for the genocide in Namibia?
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It's the state that is being held responsible, not individuals.pinno said:In what way is the current generation of any people responsible for Genocide dating back say, 75 years or more?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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The individuals that make up the 'German state' are not responsible for the genocide.rick_chasey said:
Where is this money going?
Who will that benefit?
How many individuals are directly affected by historical events that go date far back?
Would it not be far better and more progressive to support former colonies in terms of; the provision of health & medicine (end the collective pharmaceutical cartel), education, transport & communication and trade?
I accept the need to acknowledge certain historical events but I do not know what good direct monetary compensation will do. There are no survivors from the era of the Namibian genocide.
Where do we draw the line?
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I really ought to buy that poster of Emperor Claudius, stick it on the wall and throw darts at it.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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What? The state is distinct from the individual citizens, just as a corporation is distinct from the people who own shares. In this example, the German state still exists and can be held responsible. The Roman Empire does not.pinno said:
The individuals that make up the 'German state' are not responsible for the genocide.rick_chasey said:
Where is this money going?
Who will that benefit?
How many individuals are directly affected by historical events that go date far back?
Would it not be far better and more progressive to support former colonies in terms of; the provision of health & medicine (end the collective pharmaceutical cartel), education, transport & communication and trade?
I accept the need to acknowledge certain historical events but I do not know what good direct monetary compensation will do. There are no survivors from the era of the Namibian genocide.
Where do we draw the line?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.0
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What? The state is distinct from the individual citizens, just as a corporation is distinct from the people who own shares. In this example, the German state still exists and can be held responsible. The Roman Empire does not.
If a state is distinct from its citizens where does the money come from for reparation? If a corporation is distinct from its shareholders and goes under then the shareholders should get all their investment back?"Let your life rule your job, not your job rule your life"
Born to ride, forced to work.0 -
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.0 -
So the amount calculated for the entire genocide is roughly the same as Germany has given aid to Namibia since the the genocide.pinno said:
The individuals that make up the 'German state' are not responsible for the genocide.rick_chasey said:
Where is this money going?
Who will that benefit?
How many individuals are directly affected by historical events that go date far back?
Would it not be far better and more progressive to support former colonies in terms of; the provision of health & medicine (end the collective pharmaceutical cartel), education, transport & communication and trade?
I accept the need to acknowledge certain historical events but I do not know what good direct monetary compensation will do. There are no survivors from the era of the Namibian genocide.
Where do we draw the line?
I feel like you guys are rather undercooking what admitting **genocide** actually means.
Genocide. Actual genocide. The epitome of evil.0 -
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiences
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1943. Bengal. Churchill. Anyone? No? Just ignore and move on then.0
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Pino is *very* defensive of any accusations of British bad behaviour in the colonies.orraloon said:1943. Bengal. Churchill. Anyone? No? Just ignore and move on then.
A historian rather more rated than me (hah) makes the not unreasonable point that the colonial history shouldn’t really be about condemnation or celebration but just knowing what actually happened.0 -
Most people seem to make that point, but you don't seem to follow that approach.rick_chasey said:
Pino is *very* defensive of any accusations of British bad behaviour in the colonies.orraloon said:1943. Bengal. Churchill. Anyone? No? Just ignore and move on then.
A historian rather more rated than me (hah) makes the not unreasonable point that the colonial history shouldn’t really be about condemnation or celebration but just knowing what actually happened.0 -
Yeah I think it should be condemned.TheBigBean said:
Most people seem to make that point, but you don't seem to follow that approach.rick_chasey said:
Pino is *very* defensive of any accusations of British bad behaviour in the colonies.orraloon said:1943. Bengal. Churchill. Anyone? No? Just ignore and move on then.
A historian rather more rated than me (hah) makes the not unreasonable point that the colonial history shouldn’t really be about condemnation or celebration but just knowing what actually happened.
Shame about the past doesn’t help but acknowledging what happened would likely lead most people to think what happened was pretty bad all things considered.
I feel no shame personally. Why should I?
But we spend a lot of time condemning the Holocaust etc so I like to see that applied with equal prejudice elsewhere.0 -
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. One is that handing over cash doesn't overwrite history. Next will be a claim of white washing.rick_chasey said:
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiencesThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The state. The reference to a corporation was just to illustrate the point about a state being a separate legal entity in its own right. Citizens are not shareholders.andy_f said:
If a state is distinct from its citizens where does the money come from for reparation? If a corporation is distinct from its shareholders and goes under then the shareholders should get all their investment back?rjsterry said:
What? The state is distinct from the individual citizens, just as a corporation is distinct from the people who own shares. In this example, the German state still exists and can be held responsible. The Roman Empire does not.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No-one claimed it does. "What's done is done" is a pretty weak argument for not offering some form of compensation, though. The alternative is that governments cannot be held responsible for anything.pblakeney said:
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. One is that handing over cash doesn't overwrite history. Next will be a claim of white washing.rick_chasey said:
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiences1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Germany compensated Jews for the 1940-1945s genocide but not the Herero and Nama genocide for the 1904-1908 genocide.pblakeney said:
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. One is that handing over cash doesn't overwrite history. Next will be a claim of white washing.rick_chasey said:
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiences
Why the difference?0 -
Ask the Germans. How would I know?rick_chasey said:
Germany compensated Jews for the 1940-1945s genocide but not the Herero and Nama genocide for the 1904-1908 genocide.pblakeney said:
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. One is that handing over cash doesn't overwrite history. Next will be a claim of white washing.rick_chasey said:
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiences
Why the difference?
Just to save you time, I don't really care.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I think it is a fairly strong argument on part of Nama and Herero wouldn’t you say?pblakeney said:
Ask the Germans. How would I know?rick_chasey said:
Germany compensated Jews for the 1940-1945s genocide but not the Herero and Nama genocide for the 1904-1908 genocide.pblakeney said:
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. One is that handing over cash doesn't overwrite history. Next will be a claim of white washing.rick_chasey said:
You’d kinda hope the lesson learned is don’t be genocidal but people seem to want to let states off the hook on that one.pblakeney said:
The lessons learned for other countries is that it is a can of worms best left unopened.rick_chasey said:
You can see the argument.Pross said:I understand admitting it and apologising. Arguing over a financial settlement years later feels wrong though.
The Germans gave reparations to Jews so why is this different?
By giving reparations to Jews but not Herero or Nama the German govt is basically saying they value Jews more than Nama or Herero.
So if you are against reparations then presumably you are also against the reparations the relations of Holocaust victims received.
If you are not then why the inconsistency?
It is only a matter of decades different.
It’s a fairly morally unambiguous issue here.
You may be interested to learn (on thread...) that the Germans learned a lot on how to do genocide from their experiences in Namibia.
In fact the entire lebensraum bit was really solidified in the public mind during their colonial experiences
Why the difference?
Just to save you time, I don't really care.0 -
Incorrect.rick_chasey said:
Pino is *very* defensive of any accusations of British bad behaviour in the colonies.orraloon said:1943. Bengal. Churchill. Anyone? No? Just ignore and move on then.
I get incensed by the misrepresentation of facts.
I have discussed in depth flawed moral relativism.
I presented a counter idea that former colonies need more than a monetary payment (which conveniently relinquishes a contrived collective guilt) but you didn't even consider it.
What I find odd, is that you get more animated over historical events than you do over say, Yemen or the displaced people in and from Syria, or the massacres that took place recently in Burma, or the slow curtailment of free speech and democracy in Hong Kong.
There are plenty of current contemporary examples of genocide, torture and oppression that we should be taking more notice of.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!1
