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A question of morals vs confidentiality vs legals vs good neighbourliness

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  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,706
    sungod wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Yebbut. I know what individual did. Not good. Shall we say not a positive contributor to society at large. As individual should not be.
    there're millions in the uk who are "not a positive contributor to society at large"

    why single out one?

    Rome was not built in a day.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,717
    webboo wrote:
    It doesn’t matter what I think or believe but the use of censored , loony, nut job and basket case and suggest they are executed hardly fit in with title of the thread or probably the law.
    Fair point. I seem to have strayed myself from original issue to ponder. And after all, not my problem.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 41,772
    orraloon wrote:
    webboo wrote:
    It doesn’t matter what I think or believe but the use of censored , loony, nut job and basket case and suggest they are executed hardly fit in with title of the thread or probably the law.
    Fair point. I seem to have strayed myself from original issue to ponder. And after all, not my problem.
    All you had to do was say he is a leave voter and you would have got a free pass :wink:
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  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,676
    This thread can be summed up fairly simply.
    NIMBY.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • well its not even in his back yard - he doesn't even live there does he?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,676
    well its not even in his back yard - he doesn't even live there does he?
    Okay.
    Not In My Back Yard, Nor Friends Or Relatives.
    NIMBYNFOR. :wink:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • If the guys mental health consisted of self harm or suicide attempts you'd treat him differently?

    Without knowing his issues / health problems what use is our opinion on this? Generalisms about mental health? Comments about rehabilitation? A form of nimbyism? What do you want other than vent about something you don't like?
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    pblakeney wrote:
    well its not even in his back yard - he doesn't even live there does he?
    Okay.
    Not In My Back Yard, Nor Friends Or Relatives.
    NIMBYNFOR. :wink:

    The thread isn't about nimbyism - just the provision of information. If someone was going to build an incinerator on land at the back of your house you'd probably want to know about it but the only Nimbyism bit relates to what you do with that information when you've got it.

    But that said, FWIW I think the original question is a bit odd. If the vendor is that bothered about the purchaser and the impact that that person might have on the neighbours then they shouldn't sell the house to that person. Since they are not that bothered (understandably) what does it achieve to give the neighbours information that raises more questions than it answers?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,676
    Nah. The vendor is ultimately selling to someone undesirable to be neighbours to friends and/or relatives and is feeling a touch guilty.
    Presumably he would be happy if the undesirable moved elsewhere. NIMBY.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • The original post presents it as a moral dilemma along the lines of the neighbours' right to know vs the awkwardness of the conversation and the maybe (I don't know) the possible delays to the house sale.

    The thread has reframed that as the neighbours' rights vs those of the person moving in.

    I still think it's probably best if the neighbours do know.

    If my neighbour rang my doorbell at 2am in an agitated state my only thought would be "he's in some kind of trouble". If the new neighbour in this thread did similarly at least part of my reaction (given the little information about these crimes we have) would be to think "am I in trouble". That is not to say we should write off everyone who has committed violent crime or that people with mental illness can't make a recovery but rational behaviour is based on information available and if they live in ignorance of the past of the new neighbour their behaviour may unknowingly put themselves at risk.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    pblakeney wrote:
    Nah. The vendor is ultimately selling to someone undesirable to be neighbours to friends and/or relatives and is feeling a touch guilty.
    Presumably he would be happy if the undesirable moved elsewhere. NIMBY.

    No, that really isn't Nimbyism. Apart from anything else, there is no opportunity for any "not in my back gardening" to anyone unless the vendor chooses not to sell to the "undesirable".

    There is a difference between Nimybyism and not liking something happening but not doing anything about it or not being able to do anything about it. That's really the whole point of the term.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Paulie WPaulie W Posts: 1,492
    Out of interest, what do you think the selling agent was trying to achieve by passing on this info? Were they telling you as they felt morally obliged to share or was it just a bit of gossip? Were they expecting you to do something with the info such as give the soon-to-be-old neighbours a heads up? It would also be interesting to know where the selling agent and you got all your info about this man - a quick google search? I do wonder if the selling agent has broken any laws by providing the info as presumably there was no need for you or your family to know even the name of the prospective buyer...
  • how are the rest of the neighbours going to find out though unless the selling agent goes around knocking on their doors and telling them?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • how are the rest of the neighbours going to find out though unless the selling agent goes around knocking on their doors and telling them?

    It'll probably come out during the trial.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,717
    OP back. Did put my hand up earlier to going a bit over the top in my description of the person who perhaps is the next to occupy the property currently owned by family member. I still definitely would be a very unhappy person should I be in position where this individual moved in next door. I am not in that position.

    Anyway. Family member has exchanged contracts both on the sale of current property to developer firm, a national housebuilder company, and the purchase of the new build. They have no control over what now happens to their current home after they move out, it will be owned for whatever short period of time by the developer then sold on by the developer to a new owner.

    I do suspect the sales agent, not responsible for accepting on offer of purchase, has leaked off the record deliberately. I'm advising family member to adopt a move on attitude, not their problem, and not leak info to the neighbours around, only to tell neighbours they will be moving in a few months through this part exchange process. Keep out of the line. censored will hit fan in due course but developer co will, correctly, take the flak. Family member is saddened as has enjoyed living there and had an idealistic picture of a new happy family moving in, not this individual. But not their problem. Life eh?
  • ProssPross Posts: 23,904
    Why do you think that it would be 'right' for the developer to take any flak? They're buying a house and selling it on. Everyone has to live somewhere so why should anyone be expected to vett the potential purchaser of the house? Do you check on anyone you sell a car to in order to ensure they don't have dangerous driving convictions?
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,717
    Every house purchaser is vetted, as in real vs timewaster, actually have funds, actually want to buy, in position to progress and complete the transaction. Is what sales agents are supposed to do. Otherwise the already daft English system would simply implode.

    The crimes this individual has admitted to and been sectioned for or whatever the correct legalese is for not going to prison for a v long time are significant, well known in the locality as in all over the press at the time, had significant and irreversible impact on multiple individuals and entities, therefore yes a simple google of a name comes up first hit.

    However, not the issue, as I admit that I had got diverted into the rights and wrongs of this individual being released back into the world at large. The issue is that family member gets on well with neighbours, partic as is a semi the next doors. And is feeling under stress now knowing who will replace them when they move. I guarantee that if this was a straight sale / purchase without the 3rd party involvement of the national housebuilder part exchange scheme, they would have refused the offer to buy. Out of sympathy, respect, whatever emotion for their neighbours. And now stressed that they know the future and the neighbours do not. My view being the local sales agent working for the national housebuilder is similarly concerned but is the housebuilder co's call whether to accept or not the offer to purchase, so agent is trying to get the info public in advance. Which is where I'm advising family member to detach, and make sure neighbours understand they have sold their current home to this national housebuilder.

    How does that song go, I see trouble ahead...
  • ProssPross Posts: 23,904
    I'm still confused where you think this person should live. Presumably they live somewhere now without going around beating up neighbours? Being able to get a mortgage also suggests they hold down a regular job so again are presumably interacting with others on a daily basis with no issues. If they were previously Sectioned for committing a violent crime they wouldn't just be let out without a thorough risk assessment so I would have thought they have been treated and have the necessary medication and / or support plans in place to be considered safe to live back in the community.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 17,994
    While the agent may have been trying to help, I'm not sure they have. Pretty much the opposite in fact. Who the developer sells the house to is none of your family's business and by telling them, he has compromised them as they cannot now truthfully say they have no idea who the house will be sold to.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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  • ProssPross Posts: 23,904
    rjsterry wrote:
    While the agent may have been trying to help, I'm not sure they have. Pretty much the opposite in fact. Who the developer sells the house to is none of your family's business and by telling them, he has compromised them as they cannot now truthfully say they have no idea who the house will be sold to.

    He's also presumably broken data protection laws.

    In reality the only way the neighbours would ever know the purchaser's history is if they resort to similar behaviour (does anyone know if there has been any repeat of the initial offence?), if they choose to mention it themselves or if some gossip such as the estate agent let's slip. So in reality they would hopefully never find out and there would be no need for the smelly brown stuff to introduce itself to the spinny, cooling device.
  • earthearth Posts: 934
    The title reminds me of my previous neighbor who was growing a small forest of marijuana in his back garden. Should I snitch on the old coke head?

    He used to shout at his partner and threatened me on one occasion because he didn't like to noise of me refurbishing my house. He had no job, every day was a holiday for him.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,574
    ...After all, you may feel confident being bigger and taller than Rick or meek me to broach a subject but how do you know Rick isn't going to pull out a blade?

    It'd be a sharpened fountain pen, surely.
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  • id be more worried about buying the new build. since a large portion of new build sites are reserved for social housing your family member could end up moving into the problems you're concerned about leaving for others.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    id be more worried about buying the new build. since a large portion of new build sites are reserved for social housing your family member could end up moving into the problems you're concerned about leaving for others.

    What do you define as a "large proportion"? And, as you seem to disapprove of it, what is your alternative solution given that the Tories gave away much of the Council housing stock?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Rolf F wrote:
    id be more worried about buying the new build. since a large portion of new build sites are reserved for social housing your family member could end up moving into the problems you're concerned about leaving for others.

    What do you define as a "large proportion"? And, as you seem to disapprove of it, what is your alternative solution given that the Tories gave away much of the Council housing stock?

    keep the 2 housing stock types separate. Pepper potting and social engineering serves only to lower the life experiences of those who can pay their way.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,031
    I don't see much social housing on new build developments round here. There is often a proportion of so called affordable housing but you'd need to he earning a reasonable salary to take out any kind of mortgage these days.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Rolf F wrote:
    id be more worried about buying the new build. since a large portion of new build sites are reserved for social housing your family member could end up moving into the problems you're concerned about leaving for others.

    What do you define as a "large proportion"? And, as you seem to disapprove of it, what is your alternative solution given that the Tories gave away much of the Council housing stock?

    keep the 2 housing stock types separate. Pepper potting and social engineering serves only to lower the life experiences of those who can pay their way.

    Good luck getting the developers to build entire estates of social housing.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ProssPross Posts: 23,904
    I don't see much social housing on new build developments round here. There is often a proportion of so called affordable housing but you'd need to he earning a reasonable salary to take out any kind of mortgage these days.

    The target for affordable housing is usually around the 30% mark on new developments but there are clauses that allow this to be reduced. 'Affordable' is officially defined as rent being no greater than 80% of the local market value so obviously can still be very expensive in some areas and not really affordable to someone working on national living wage even with any in work benefits. Social housing has a slightly different definition and set of guidelines governing the rent costs. It's quite a complex area.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,717
    On family member's new build estate, the 'affordable' houses would appear to be ones built in terraces of 4 rather than the detacheds or semis. Still expensive.
  • I very nearly bought a house on an estate once, a small block not far from my house was reserved for key workers according to the sales agent. A bit of checking and investigation and it turned out it was reserved for vulnerable homeless.

    I didn't buy the house.

    Aldermaston, and on recent drive by, I was right not to.
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