Race bike, how much faster?

2

Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Jacksyee wrote:
    Interesting. 5-10 watts total for latex vs butyl. Are we debating that’s the case or that it matters?

    If it’s 5 it’s 2.5 percent savings at 200 watts. Simply massive

    Not sure if you’re being serious or not. 2.5% saving at 200w might be ‘massive’ to you, but irrelevant to the op. But I’d still be keen to see the source of your data, either way...
  • Jacksyee
    Jacksyee Posts: 48
    Not trying to fight. 2.5 percent watt savings on a half Ironman bike leg would imply for me more than three minutes faster (I am obviously not super fast) but that is a ton

    I’m just commenting that equipment generated watts savings matters. No longer really addressing the OP

    RE:latex watt savings plenty of studies. If you think there isn’t any savings that’s cool but I’m not interested in debating that

    I admit triathletes obsess about stuff like this but you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don’t grab the low hanging fruit and latex tubes are about the lowest hanging fruit you can find
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Jacksyee wrote:
    Not trying to fight. 2.5 percent watt savings on a half Ironman bike leg would imply for me more than three minutes faster (I am obviously not super fast) but that is a ton

    I’m just commenting that equipment generated watts savings matters. No longer really addressing the OP

    RE:latex watt savings plenty of studies. If you think there isn’t any savings that’s cool but I’m not interested in debating that

    I admit triathletes obsess about stuff like this but you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don’t grab the low hanging fruit and latex tubes are about the lowest hanging fruit you can find

    Again, I don’t think the op is a trier, or a tter. I also didn’t say that latex offered no savings, I simply asked you to verify your claim that they did. If there’s ‘plenty of studies’ then show us a couple...
  • I'm going to randomly pluck "sub 9mins" for the loop out of the air from less bike weight on the climb and a more aero position for you for the same power, traffic and wind conditions. *

    * This random number generation could be way out. ;)
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • Imposter wrote:
    Not sure if you’re being serious or not. 2.5% saving at 200w might be ‘massive’ to you, but irrelevant to the op.

    Says you! Need to go about 4% faster to get in the top 10 on Strava, which would make me quite happy. 5-10 watts would go a fair bit towards that. Think I might get some
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:
    Not sure if you’re being serious or not. 2.5% saving at 200w might be ‘massive’ to you, but irrelevant to the op.

    Says you! Need to go about 4% faster to get in the top 10 on Strava, which would make me quite happy. 5-10 watts would go a fair bit towards that. Think I might get some

    Or you could just train harder - you haven't actually said what amount or type of riding you do. Or are you now convinced that everyone above you on strava is using latex tubes, and you are slower because you aren't..?
  • I'm going to randomly pluck "sub 9mins" for the loop out of the air from less bike weight on the climb and a more aero position for you for the same power, traffic and wind conditions. *

    * This random number generation could be way out. ;)

    Sounds highly accurate to me :) Just watched GCN's rigorous science on this and from that I'm reckoning at least 10 seconds, maybe 20. And who knows if I get the latex tubes and a skin suit too... could be in line for a contract next year.
  • Imposter wrote:
    Or you could just train harder - you haven't actually said what amount or type of riding you do. Or are you now convinced that everyone above you on strava is using latex tubes, and you are slower because you aren't..?

    Not at all, they're all fitter than I am and have better bikes. I don't think they were all trying their very hardest though, and conditions traffic make a lot of difference so I might sneak in with a bit of luck (and some latex tubes, obvz ;) )

    Not a tt er or tri guy. I just like to ride my bike and trying to get top tens or just decent (for me) times on the occasional hill/segment. Bit sad maybe, but I enjoy it. Amount of riding varies a lot 250kn some weeks, 30km others. Did almost 5000 last year and probably on for similar this year.

    I could definitely train harder
  • andyh01
    andyh01 Posts: 599
    The thing for me is after a short while you'll forget about the marginal gains.
    I brought myself a nice all rounder bike reletively expensive for me Alloy gravel bike disc brakes 32mm tubeless and rear rack fitted circa 9.5kg.
    Within a year I've lost in excess 1/3rd of my body weight, I can't really say I remember the difference in speed , it's just probably easier especially going up long dragging hills.

    I am tempted with an aero carbon sub 7kg bike.. but I've still got some weight I can lose off my body for free and after awhile the marginal gain will be forgotten about.

    By all.means buy the new bike that you want if you have the money if it means you're going to use it more but don't expect miracles
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,241
    Marginal gains - important when racing, negligible for recreational cyclists.
    Waste of money if you are expecting results. Training gains more. Then again, buy what you want.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • hadoken
    hadoken Posts: 29
    When I first upgraded to my carbon bike, I felt faster than on my aluminium bike, however Strava told me I'm wasn't!
    My carbon bike feels so much nicer to ride though, more nimble and responsive.
  • mab2444
    mab2444 Posts: 7
    If you do a search on the likes of GCN, they have done videos on this sort of thing. How faster is a top end bike compared to a budget one etc. Check these out which may help you find the answers you are looking for.

    You may have noticed that you get a lot of rather unhelpful "contributors" on this forum. Just ignore the trolls.

    They also have a video looking at the impact of weight. It does make a difference, not surprising given the laws of physics although it is quite an expensive way to go faster up hill. Placebo is a factor, don't dismiss placebo! The placebo effect makes me faster and happier on my on my Sunday best bike!
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,890
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.
  • mpie
    mpie Posts: 81
    So here's the result of a real experiment...
    Earlier this year my SuperSix was smash by a careless driver and I replaced it with something quite different: a Kinesis Tripster AT. I was curious how much slower it was, so I timed multiple loops of a lumpy 6 mile course from home (left turn only, minimal traffic) - first a warm up lap, then alternating laps on the new bike (10.5kg, 40mm knobbly Maxxis Ravager tyres @ 30PSI tubeless) and an old race bike (9kg, 25mm GP4000s @ 60/70PSI). I tried to maintain a fairly constant level of effort (purposeful 2h ride effort, no freewheeling, no honking, no red-zone, no resting). The laps on the old bike 'felt' faster for sure - more nimble, agile, bouncy - but I seemed to get into the 11t sprocket at about the same point on the downhill although I used one lower gear (32t on new bike instead of 30t on old) on the steep uphill stretch. In the new (slow) bike's favour I think I was probably hitting the bend at the bottom of the hill a bit faster due to hydraulic brakes and fatter, grippier tyres.
    The bottom line after analysing the lap times was that the new bike was only only 2-3% slower on this sort of terrain (typical for my riding). And that's with very road-unfriendly tyres. I now have 35mm slicks on (Gravelkings) and should probably redo the experiment. For me, 2% is a small price to pay for the increased all-day comfort and go-anywhere ability of the Tripster vs. a 'fast race bike'. I can probably regain the 2% just by making a point of riding in the drops a bit more on the flats.
    Make of that what you will...
  • mpie
    mpie Posts: 81
    phreak wrote:
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.

    In a one-off like this it could be just luck with drafting, wind, better preparation, more experience - rather than simple fitness/better bike.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    mpie wrote:
    phreak wrote:
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.

    In a one-off like this it could be just luck with drafting, wind, better preparation, more experience - rather than simple fitness/better bike.

    Or maybe the second time, he didn't stop for lunch halfway...
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    phreak wrote:
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.

    What we don't know was how little work he did for his first attempt ?
    Did he blow up massively by pacing it wrongly ? You're not going to gain 90 minutes with a different bike unless one had the brake jammed on.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Fenix wrote:
    phreak wrote:
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.

    What we don't know was how little work he did for his first attempt ?
    Did he blow up massively by pacing it wrongly ? You're not going to gain 90 minutes with a different bike unless one had the brake jammed on.

    but what if he had discs and tubeless? the guy at the shop told him they were the future!

    #speedy
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Imposter wrote:
    mpie wrote:
    phreak wrote:
    Bloke I know managed to lop 1h30m off of his Maratona time by doing about 3000km a year training but with a new bike. Hard to imagine his bike (~£1500 worth + aero wheels vs £750) made that much of a difference, but with his training volume I can't fathom how he managed to improve by that much from the work he put in.

    In a one-off like this it could be just luck with drafting, wind, better preparation, more experience - rather than simple fitness/better bike.

    Or maybe the second time, he didn't stop for lunch halfway...

    or a sleep

    #snorin'
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    For most people, it would make sense to lose a few kilos themselves rather than spending a couple of grand to drop 2 kilos of bike weight.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • Imposter wrote:
    I would say there's no particular expectation of going faster outside of a handful seconds here or there. With more favourable conditions, you might find yourself going faster on your current bike, especially if you trained more. Generally speaking, you cannot buy performance, you need to train for it.

    But proper training is expensive. When I say proper training, I mean the stuff athletes have access to. Experts, personal trainers, dieticians, fitness sensors and gadgets and all that bollux. I bet they're essential if you want to compete with the worlds best.
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,686
    elbowloh wrote:
    For most people, it would make sense to lose a few kilos themselves rather than spending a couple of grand to drop 2 kilos of bike weight.
    They're not mutually exclusive. You're allowed to do both.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:
    I would say there's no particular expectation of going faster outside of a handful seconds here or there. With more favourable conditions, you might find yourself going faster on your current bike, especially if you trained more. Generally speaking, you cannot buy performance, you need to train for it.

    But proper training is expensive. When I say proper training, I mean the stuff athletes have access to. Experts, personal trainers, dieticians, fitness sensors and gadgets and all that bollux. I bet they're essential if you want to compete with the worlds best.

    Coaching can be expensive, but the two costs (ie coaching v buying a new bike) are hardly comparable..
  • bflk
    bflk Posts: 240
    I swapped an 11.2kg bike for an 8.0kg one last summer and my experience was
    hill climbs - improved
    flat - no significant difference
    descents - v twitchy in gusty wind so I'm probably more cautious now especially if its an exposed road (eg Crow Road outside Glasgow).

    But luckily its mainly climbs that motivate me. So for me I wouldn't use a loop course as the test even if it was varied.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,312
    Could we have saved 3 pages with the word "slightly"?
  • Could we have saved 3 pages with the word "slightly"?

    Define "slightly." :lol:
    ================
    2020 Voodoo Marasa
    2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
    2016 Voodoo Wazoo
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    .7mph
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    2mph if there are disc brakes
    1mph if there are tubeless
    .5mph if theyre between 25 and 30mm
    1mph for anything with graphene written on it

    dropped stays 2 mph

    if you buy the whole package, you can probably leave before youve arrived

    10 seconds if you buy a bike fit
    another mile an hour if you have boas on your shoes
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    but the guy at the shop and the clubbies said that if I have discs and tubeless and di2 I'll be hypersonic - AND THEY NO LIE - especially the guy at the shop.

    #thefuture
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,241
    Imposter wrote:
    I would say there's no particular expectation of going faster outside of a handful seconds here or there. With more favourable conditions, you might find yourself going faster on your current bike, especially if you trained more. Generally speaking, you cannot buy performance, you need to train for it.

    But proper training is expensive. When I say proper training, I mean the stuff athletes have access to. Experts, personal trainers, dieticians, fitness sensors and gadgets and all that bollux. I bet they're essential if you want to compete with the worlds best.
    I very much doubt that anyone asking the question is remotely close to competing with the worlds best.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.