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The Poels factor

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  • N0bodyOfTheGoatN0bodyOfTheGoat Posts: 5,782
    Would be far better for the sport spectators to spread out the real GC contenders and "super domestiques" more evenly between the teams, which is something that could be said about many sports, where sadly money now buys success most of the time.
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  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,229
    CarbonClem wrote:
    Surely Geraint gets sold the Vuelta and/or Giro now. Assuming Froome mends ok, it’s him and Egan for the Tour.

    That was my thinking as well. Ineos next year:-

    Giro: Thomas and Carapaz
    Tour: Froome and Bernal
    Vuelta: Tour loser and Giro loser - LOL!
  • hypster wrote:
    some of the domestiques are going to feel a little less than special I'm guessing.

    While I am sure money helps the domestiques I am sure being on a winning team where their efforts make a strong contribution to the win make them feel special enough. Much better than putting the effort in and not winning.
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,229
    hypster wrote:
    some of the domestiques are going to feel a little less than special I'm guessing.

    While I am sure money helps the domestiques I am sure being on a winning team where their efforts make a strong contribution to the win make them feel special enough. Much better than putting the effort in and not winning.

    There is the other point of view though. Plenty of domestiques think they deserve a shot at a prize i.e. Richie Porte, Mikel Landa etc. and get disgruntled. When it was just Froome winning GTs for the team there was scope for other tours. Now there's no possibility and all a domestique at Ineos can look forward to is one day classics or killing themselves in service and taking the cheque.
  • r0bhr0bh Posts: 2,131
    hypster wrote:
    There is the other point of view though. Plenty of domestiques think they deserve a shot at a prize i.e. Richie Porte, Mikel Landa etc. and get disgruntled. When it was just Froome winning GTs for the team there was scope for other tours. Now there's no possibility and all a domestique at Ineos can look forward to is one day classics or killing themselves in service and taking the cheque.

    How many of Sky/Ineos's super domestiques have left and got better results at their new teams though?
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,031
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    There's a decent argument for swapping Sivakov for Tao there - there's not a great deal between them but Tao has been Bernal's wingman for a year and a half. They room together, Tao speaks Spanish etc.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,031
    Is Carapaz confirmed, or just strong rumour? I was under the impression that he might be staying put and using Ineos as salary leverage.

    I think they'll be careful with Bernal. They won't want to over-race him and burn him out young. If he does two GTs next season then one will be as a super-deluxe dom.

    So say
    Thomas gets Giro & Tour
    Froome gets Tour
    Bernal gets Tour and Vuelta

    Each of Thomas & Bernal has a primary GT to themselves
    They all ride the tour, Froome as plan A.
    It's possible.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Is Carapaz confirmed, or just strong rumour? I was under the impression that he might be staying put and using Ineos as salary leverage.

    I think they'll be careful with Bernal. They won't want to over-race him and burn him out young. If he does two GTs next season then one will be as a super-deluxe dom.

    So say
    Thomas gets Giro & Tour
    Froome gets Tour
    Bernal gets Tour and Vuelta

    Each of Thomas & Bernal has a primary GT to themselves
    They all ride the tour, Froome as plan A.
    It's possible.

    If you want to complicate it further throw in the Olympic road race route with it being the last chance for Froome or Thomas to get Olympic gold
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 27,112
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    There's a decent argument for swapping Sivakov for Tao there - there's not a great deal between them but Tao has been Bernal's wingman for a year and a half. They room together, Tao speaks Spanish etc.
    Maybe. But I think they'll want to give Sivakov a low key intro to the Tour. And one while he's still Russian. (My theory, based on absolutely nothing, is he'll change his nationality to French in due course and become the next French Tour winner)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,229
    r0bh wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    There is the other point of view though. Plenty of domestiques think they deserve a shot at a prize i.e. Richie Porte, Mikel Landa etc. and get disgruntled. When it was just Froome winning GTs for the team there was scope for other tours. Now there's no possibility and all a domestique at Ineos can look forward to is one day classics or killing themselves in service and taking the cheque.

    How many of Sky/Ineos's super domestiques have left and got better results at their new teams though?

    Obviously not but that's kind of the gist of my point. Disgruntled domestiques not getting a shot at Ineos are not going to perform to the best of their ability for maybe someone like Carapaz. For some it must be a hard choice between staying and being a super-domestique, like Richie Porte arguabaly was, or trying to get team leadership elsewhere at a lesser team. Others like Luke Rowe play to their strengths and become indispensible for the role they fulfill within the team.
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 3,258
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    2 former winners take some skills to manage, 3 former winners seems almost impossible... surely one of them will go... problem is go where?

    Movistar with their roster of superstars didn't even manage the podium
    Don't think Geraint has much of a leg to stand on regarding making any demands after this Tour. It was there for the taking with Froome and Dumoulin out and Pinot abandoning and he was unable to bring it home. Froome would have taken the win as his. Thomas only tried to be there left standing when everyone else failed. Bernal didn't.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,031
    M.R.M. wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    2 former winners take some skills to manage, 3 former winners seems almost impossible... surely one of them will go... problem is go where?

    Movistar with their roster of superstars didn't even manage the podium
    Don't think Geraint has much of a leg to stand on regarding making any demands after this Tour. It was there for the taking with Froome and Dumoulin out and Pinot abandoning and he was unable to bring it home. Froome would have taken the win as his. Thomas only tried to be there left standing when everyone else failed. Bernal didn't.

    Harsh. Thomas's big chance was the second half of stage 19.... which didn't happen. Bernal's job was to shake Alaphilippe out as they didn't have a mountain train to do it. Thomas would take a free ride and then attack. Bernal rode into yellow doing that (not an accident, but not essential to an Ineos win).
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Harry182Harry182 Posts: 1,169
    [quote=Harsh. Thomas's big chance was the second half of stage 19.... which didn't happen. Bernal's job was to shake Alaphilippe out as they didn't have a mountain train to do it. Thomas would take a free ride and then attack. Bernal rode into yellow doing that (not an accident, but not essential to an Ineos win).[/quote]

    Arguably that’s what Ineos tried on Stage 18. But I do think GT would have won if Ineos had gone all in for him. GT is the second strongest of the Tour finishers.
  • DeadCalmDeadCalm Posts: 4,099
    RichN95 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    There's a decent argument for swapping Sivakov for Tao there - there's not a great deal between them but Tao has been Bernal's wingman for a year and a half. They room together, Tao speaks Spanish etc.
    Maybe. But I think they'll want to give Sivakov a low key intro to the Tour. And one while he's still Russian. (My theory, based on absolutely nothing, is he'll change his nationality to French in due course and become the next French Tour winner)
    Not sure tour selection would be affected by this but Sivakov has talked about adopting French nationality in interviews in the past. His parentage may be Russian but he's been raised in France and is much more French.
    Team My Man 2022:

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  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    hypster wrote:
    I don't understand what has happened to Kwiatkowski, Poels and maybe even Thomas in this Tour. Sky/Ineos analyse all their riders at multiple training camps and usually bring them to the Tour at the peak of their performance to do the business. That obviously is wildly off this time and I'm wondering what the reason is?

    It can't just be the Froome factor because that happened just a couple of weeks before the Tour. Thomas was always going to be supported as the defending champion so the domestiques should have been trained to a peak for that at least.

    EDIT: Poels won a stage in the Dauphine as well didn't he and finished 4th on GC so he was going well enough there.

    I suspect that the whole sky / Ineos question will have disrupted concentration.
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 3,258
    M.R.M. wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    2 former winners take some skills to manage, 3 former winners seems almost impossible... surely one of them will go... problem is go where?

    Movistar with their roster of superstars didn't even manage the podium
    Don't think Geraint has much of a leg to stand on regarding making any demands after this Tour. It was there for the taking with Froome and Dumoulin out and Pinot abandoning and he was unable to bring it home. Froome would have taken the win as his. Thomas only tried to be there left standing when everyone else failed. Bernal didn't.

    Harsh. Thomas's big chance was the second half of stage 19.... which didn't happen. Bernal's job was to shake Alaphilippe out as they didn't have a mountain train to do it. Thomas would take a free ride and then attack. Bernal rode into yellow doing that (not an accident, but not essential to an Ineos win).
    But would Thomas have caught Bernal on stage 19? I don't think so. Thomas basically is a one (one and a half) trick pony. He waits super long and then does a 1 minute max effort or a "I win sprints against climbers" move at the end of a climb when everyone sits up angling tactically for the stage win (like on Alpe d'Huez last year).
    Bernal was already leading Thomas by 5 seconds and was up the road. I think Thomas would have ridden into 2nd and that is as far as he would have gone.
    He is too nice and not driven to the length you need to be in order to become a multiple time GT winner and an all time great. Those do not tolerate any others besides them (see Froome, Contador, Nibali, Hinault etc. etc.)
    This level of niceness makes him a better teammate and better person and probably happier in life, but it doesn't allow you to be truly great.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • ProssPross Posts: 39,244
    Kwia even got dropped on today's stage.
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