The Poels factor

ugo.santalucia
ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
edited July 2019 in Pro race
Looks like Bernal will win the Tour, but for a change we have seen a bit of action in the GC... and crucially I put it all down to Poels' poor form...
Ineos ran out of lead out men on every climb, which is something we have never seen before
left the forum March 2023
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Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited July 2019
    Is his form that poor, though? Bernal was originally supposed to be doing his job

    If he wins, it's two out of competition crashes that have made it possible. His pre-Giro and Froome's.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Looks like Bernal will win the Tour, but for a change we have seen a bit of action in the GC... and crucially I put it all down to Poels' poor form...
    Ineos ran out of lead out men on every climb, which is something we have never seen before

    Nowt to do with Poels in my book. Other links are totally missing from the chain, this Tour.
    He's having to come to the fore too soon.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,620
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Where's he going? Has he decided he wants to be the boss after all?

    Moscon and Kwiatkowski have been the real problem for Ineos. Its a good job for them that vab Baarl showed up ready
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    I don't understand what has happened to Kwiatkowski, Poels and maybe even Thomas in this Tour. Sky/Ineos analyse all their riders at multiple training camps and usually bring them to the Tour at the peak of their performance to do the business. That obviously is wildly off this time and I'm wondering what the reason is?

    It can't just be the Froome factor because that happened just a couple of weeks before the Tour. Thomas was always going to be supported as the defending champion so the domestiques should have been trained to a peak for that at least.

    EDIT: Poels won a stage in the Dauphine as well didn't he and finished 4th on GC so he was going well enough there.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Poels was good today. Kwiat been out of form. G been ok but basically was that stage where JA won a load of time and no one has been keen to take it back until the last minute.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,691
    Let's not forget that in swapping Froome for van Barle that's promoted Bernal from mountain domestique to race leader. That's a massive loss in support quality.

    Poels hasn't been brilliant (but was good today). Van Barle has been better than expected, but had to be put in the break to be where he was needed, and cant really force the pace like Poels and Bernal (Tao, Elissonde..) could.

    Kwiatkowski clearly isn't right somehow. That's a huge loss.
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Let's not forget that in swapping Froome for van Barle that's promoted Bernal from mountain domestique to race leader.

    Which is where he belongs... at 22 he has shown to be a superstar and shouldn't be a domestique to anyone, especially to GT who is (in my opinion) nowhere near as good a climber
    left the forum March 2023
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,691
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Let's not forget that in swapping Froome for van Barle that's promoted Bernal from mountain domestique to race leader.

    Which is where he belongs... at 22 he has shown to be a superstar and shouldn't be a domestique to anyone, especially to GT who is (in my opinion) nowhere near as good a climber

    I'm certainly not arguing that! :D
    But last year he was a seriously high class mountain dom. That's not been close to being replaced in the mountain team.
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Poels also mentioned that his form in terms of numbers is as good as it has always been.
    _
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,691
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)
    _
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Poels already popped, after 20 miles of racing
    left the forum March 2023
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,691
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)

    Ah, it was Thomas over Froome. I misunderstood, thought it was Thomas over Bernal.
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  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Poels already popped, after 20 miles of racing
    You must be watching a different race.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    I said it right at the start of the race and I'll say it again: Third Week Poels.
    Last domi standing again. (unless you count Thomas :P )
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,691
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    I said it right at the start of the race and I'll say it again: Third Week Poels.
    Last domi standing again. (unless you count Thomas :P )

    Danish commentators had his ride today as: "In emergency, break glass". They've basically not really needed to crack him out before.
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)

    Ah, it was Thomas over Froome. I misunderstood, thought it was Thomas over Bernal.
    But van Baarle has barely ridden with Froome. This year's Dauphine was only the second race they've done together (the other was at the beginning of 2018).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)

    Ah, it was Thomas over Froome. I misunderstood, thought it was Thomas over Bernal.
    But van Baarle has barely ridden with Froome. This year's Dauphine was only the second race they've done together (the other was at the beginning of 2018).

    It appears the Dutch dislike of Froome even extends to team mates that may or may not have raced with him. The Froome dislike is widespread and hilariously hypocritical, maar doe normaal, typische Nederlands, given the history of Dutch cycling.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)

    Ah, it was Thomas over Froome. I misunderstood, thought it was Thomas over Bernal.
    But van Baarle has barely ridden with Froome. This year's Dauphine was only the second race they've done together (the other was at the beginning of 2018).

    Poels has though
    _
  • mamil314
    mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    This thread is named wrong, it was Kwiato that didn't turn up and Poels had to do more. Good job the new guys stepped up
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    mamil314 wrote:
    This thread is named wrong, it was Kwiato that didn't turn up and Poels had to do more. Good job the new guys stepped up

    Kwiato was down to his last pair of Oakleys.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,620
    Above The Cows wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    1) If Poels is leaving (seems he is), then maybe his head isn't completely in it
    2) I'm certain not having Froome in the squad is having an impact on how the support riders ride. If they win this one without him in the team, it'll be the first GT they've won where he wasn't in the team

    Poels and v. Baarle have said they much prefer riding for Tomas and he gets more out of them.

    Any word on why that might be? Different riding style/tactics? Personality? Or maybe just unfamiliarity (Tao has usually had the mountain dom role for Bernal)?

    1) less abuse on the road from fans

    2) he makes for a better team atmosphere (eg Poels being novelty record DJ on the bus)

    Ah, it was Thomas over Froome. I misunderstood, thought it was Thomas over Bernal.
    But van Baarle has barely ridden with Froome. This year's Dauphine was only the second race they've done together (the other was at the beginning of 2018).

    It appears the Dutch dislike of Froome even extends to team mates that may or may not have raced with him. The Froome dislike is widespread and hilariously hypocritical, maar doe normaal, typische Nederlands, given the history of Dutch cycling.

    I thought Poels and Froome were best buds
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486
    There are some rumors in the Wiggins podcast and others that Kwiatkowski got sick. No idea if it's true though.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Double post
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    M.R.M. wrote:
    There are some rumors in the Wiggins podcast and others that Kwiatkowski got sick. No idea if it's true though.

    I guess that's the obvious speculation but it would be nice if we could get some actual explanation from Ineos. Even if they wanted to bluff it out during the race they could explain what happened to him after.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    RichN95 wrote:
    I won't be sure of Kwiatkowski or Poels making the Ineos team next year.

    My Guess: Bernal, Thomas, Froome, Sivakov, van Baarle, Rowe, Castroviejo, one other - probably Kwiato

    2 former winners take some skills to manage, 3 former winners seems almost impossible... surely one of them will go... problem is go where?

    Movistar with their roster of superstars didn't even manage the podium
    left the forum March 2023
  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,798
    Surely Geraint gets sold the Vuelta and/or Giro now. Assuming Froome mends ok, it’s him and Egan for the Tour.
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    It's getting a crowded at Ineos now isn't it? I did think that maybe, just maybe they might encourage Bernal to go for the Giro next year rather than defend the yellow jersey like they tried to do with Thomas this year. Then I remembered they have Carapaz as well the defending Giro champion so it's all getting a bit crowded at the top isn't it?

    Also, up until recently Froome was the natural leader for almost any GT he entered and he had a core of the best domestiques in the team and obviously a close rapport with them. Now it's all getting a bit disjointed with 4 GT winners in the team and some of the domestiques are going to feel a little less than special I'm guessing.

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