Advice required re; dog attack ....

Alejandrosdog

First Aspect wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Plenty of advocacy for enforcing your individual rights but when the owners are vulnerable the impact of a dog being destroyed will be profound.

It’s disappointing to see adversarial being taken as a
baseline rather than as a last resort.

Well put.

At what point does an owners feelings trump the safety or feelings of a passer by?

Or a dangerous dogs safety and welfare be more important than a passer by?

bristolpete

Cheers all , good debate.

I have again spoke to the local police who intend on talking to the owners. This is enough for me. I am well aware of the nature / nurture debate of the dog and its behaviour and ultimately it was bad timing. But, life goes on, I hope the owners are OK and can move on too.

It has reminded me of how fantastic my dogs are. Well behaved, super happy Devon doggies living the dream and again good parenting has done this, but obviously I had them as puppies and not legacy dogs carrying baggage.

We can only but do our best.

Pete.

apreading

Good call. IF you dont report it then the dog could be attacking someone every week but if nobody reports it then the police dont know. Good to get it on record so that if they keep getting reports they can then take action. A 'one-off' should not be reason to destroy dog unless particularly vicious or extreme. Owners should be told to a) learn to control dog/teach it to control itself and b) muzzle it until confident they have achieved a).

DeVlaeminck

I think that's what I'd have done, I wouldn't want the dog put down but at the same time it has to be kept on a short leash if that is how it behaves.

Ben6899

Sensible course of action, Pete. I hope you're healed enough to ride this weekend!

pilot_pete

It is not true that all dogs can be trained. Our cocker was totally placid and then, without reason would turn and bite. All the dog whisperers in the world couldn’t stop him. Friend who is a vet told me about ‘cocker rage’, which has almost been eliminated through breeding responsibly. Unfortunately our cocker, which came from a respectable breeder (farmer’s wife) suffered from this cocker rage. It was not pretty.

PP

gt8374uh9jiodpo

Nice move reporting the dog.
What I dont understand however is why you got off the bike. Could you not have upped the speed and got away? Or slow down and worst case be prepared to boot the thing if it jumps up for a bite?
I dont care if its the owner or dog at fault, if one tries to attack me and I dont have an escape route "I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger".

sloppyschleckonds

gt8374uh9jiodpo wrote:

Nice move reporting the dog.
What I dont understand however is why you got off the bike. Could you not have upped the speed and got away? Or slow down and worst case be prepared to boot the thing if it jumps up for a bite?
I dont care if its the owner or dog at fault, if one tries to attack me and I dont have an escape route "I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger".

Dogs can run faster than a fat mamil

shirley_basso

Pilot Pete wrote:

It is not true that all dogs can be trained. Our cocker was totally placid and then, without reason would turn and bite. All the dog whisperers in the world couldn’t stop him. Friend who is a vet told me about ‘cocker rage’, which has almost been eliminated through breeding responsibly. Unfortunately our cocker, which came from a respectable breeder (farmer’s wife) suffered from this cocker rage. It was not pretty.

PP

Genuine question : was it a red coated one? They are Particularly at risk of this.

pilot_pete

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pilot Pete wrote:

It is not true that all dogs can be trained. Our cocker was totally placid and then, without reason would turn and bite. All the dog whisperers in the world couldn’t stop him. Friend who is a vet told me about ‘cocker rage’, which has almost been eliminated through breeding responsibly. Unfortunately our cocker, which came from a respectable breeder (farmer’s wife) suffered from this cocker rage. It was not pretty.

PP

Genuine question : was it a red coated one? They are Particularly at risk of this.

Yes, indeed and we found that out during our investigations too...

PP

bristolpete

gt8374uh9jiodpo wrote:

Nice move reporting the dog.
What I dont understand however is why you got off the bike. Could you not have upped the speed and got away? Or slow down and worst case be prepared to boot the thing if it jumps up for a bite?
I dont care if its the owner or dog at fault, if one tries to attack me and I dont have an escape route "I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger".

Reread the text, the dog was going mental being on the bike would have resulted in him biting me sooner. I used the bike as a barrier, placing between me and his teeth. We can all be pragmatic in hindsight but a right angle narrow path restricted the getaway options.

Anyway, a good ride Saturday, 80 miles with 6,200 feet of climbing and no problems.

shirley_basso

Pilot Pete wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pilot Pete wrote:

It is not true that all dogs can be trained. Our cocker was totally placid and then, without reason would turn and bite. All the dog whisperers in the world couldn’t stop him. Friend who is a vet told me about ‘cocker rage’, which has almost been eliminated through breeding responsibly. Unfortunately our cocker, which came from a respectable breeder (farmer’s wife) suffered from this cocker rage. It was not pretty.

PP

Genuine question : was it a red coated one? They are Particularly at risk of this.

Yes, indeed and we found that out during our investigations too...

PP

A friend was going to get one as likes the colour but luckily we advised him otherwise.

My parents have a liver coloured one and he is very gentle.

ddraver

bristolpete wrote:

Cheers all , good debate.

I have again spoke to the local police who intend on talking to the owners. This is enough for me. I am well aware of the nature / nurture debate of the dog and its behaviour and ultimately it was bad timing. But, life goes on, I hope the owners are OK and can move on too.

Good call I think. Hopefully, an almighty bollocking might wake the owners up a bit and make them realise that the dog is a dog and won't get a second chance.

I was a little too young to realise what happened but my parents had to put down an old retriever who got funny in his old age and bit someone (as in they chose to I think, 2 young kids n' that).

norvernrob

First Aspect wrote:

with respect, you probably don't know the difference between an alert bark and a precursor to an attack. You are also, by the nature of your job and human nature, going to have strong confirmation bias.

22 years of dealing with dozens of dogs every day and I don’t know the differences in their behaviour? I can tell a dog that’s going to attack and one that isn’t from a mile away. If I couldn’t, I’d have been bitten a whole lot more than twice in 22 years (both times from dogs that ran out from behind the owners).

And the ones I’m referred to anyway are the ones that the owners, being responsible people, told me not to engage or go on the garden when the dog was out or door open. Then there were the ones that go absolutely berserk behind gates or in windows, desperate to get to me. I’ve seen them rip curtains down, slam into doors, bounce at fences etc.

And I really like dogs, they’re usually lovely animals. But they’re definitely not all to be trusted. I’m not even a postie anymore either, dogs are welcome to try it on now but I’ll be sat in a 50 ton train so there’s only going to be one winner

StillGoing

ddraver wrote:

bristolpete wrote:

Cheers all , good debate.

I have again spoke to the local police who intend on talking to the owners. This is enough for me. I am well aware of the nature / nurture debate of the dog and its behaviour and ultimately it was bad timing. But, life goes on, I hope the owners are OK and can move on too.

Good call I think. Hopefully, an almighty bollocking might wake the owners up a bit and make them realise that the dog is a dog and won't get a second chance.

I was a little too young to realise what happened but my parents had to put down an old retriever who got funny in his old age and bit someone (as in they chose to I think, 2 young kids n' that).

As an experienced dog trainer, my experience of retrievers are that they are prone to treachery and vices. Remember one particular one called "Purdy" that was as nice as pie with anyone, but stick food in front of it and it'd have you fingers off before you could put the bowl down.

Bumo_b

I am sorry to disagree with the majority of posters here, but having taken dogs that needed rehoming and was on their last stand so to speak, the absolute vast majority of them can be retrained. In fairness, some have needed very tough love and for any that have even posed the slightest risk of nipping or biting have gone out with a muzzle. The blame lays squarely with the owners, and sue away in my book if you feel that way inclined. Dogs are very much like kids, bring them up wrong, without structure and rules and it is chaos waiting to happen (stabbings in the UK would attest to this). Maybe we should have the dangerous humans act. Trouble is, those using their phones whilst driving, cycling through reds lights, those carrying knives, anyone who poses a danger and ends up causing an injury could be executed!

slowbike

Bumo_b wrote:

The blame lays squarely with the owners

Same owner, two different dogs - two totally different personalities.
The first one bit me (on the leg - through jeans, I booted it in retaliation) - the second one lays down for it's belly to be rubbed ...

I think you're right in that the owners have the responsibility to control the dogs behaviour - but there's a lot of dog personality in it too.

Bumo_b

But then the first one needs different training to the one that lays down to have its belly rubbed. Dog training is the same as anything else, there is no one size fits all. I had one dog that was fairly aggressive when I got her, absolute nightmare. In the end it took wrestling her to the ground, flipping on her back (all without physical pain) and holding her down until she stopped having the energy. Took about a month. In the end, she would make a move to go after something/someone and I would click my finger and she would flip on her back wagging her tail. Was hard bloody work though and easy to lose faith.

Alejandrosdog

my god, assigning dogs the same character traits as humans, giving them equal or better EQ and blaming their owners for dangerosu behaviour is ridiculous. its childish and its just plain wrong.

in parts of the world where packs of dogs exist without human owners, you can see the whole spectrum of doggy personality on show. They are fundamentally animals that have been mostly domesticated but not totally. Only God can truly tame a wild animal. Apart from dog lovers and members of PETA who apparently equal him none of us have god like qualities.

Midnight

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

You do need to follow this up. The “what if it was a small child” argument is a valid one. At the very least steps need to be taken to ensure that dog wears a muzzle in public.

The problem is that too many people get away with things

I have personally placed THREE notes on cars that i have seen people reverse in to and then drive off, one got out and looked at the damage and drove off.

If I had not said anything damage would have gone un paid for and antone including people here who say forget it suffer.

I bet if someone else was injured it would be different

Follow it up, keep a headcam and yes SUE, if a HUMAN had done that to you, would you let them off NO

Oh and I agree with a poster above, MUZZLE dogs that need it, dogs are NOT to blame the OWNERS are. I had a lovely dog years ago, when we were out she was always on a short lead.

I LOVE yes LOVE all animals, I have three rescue cats, two were ferrell, and are now the loveliest cats ever but were to be put down by a charity as no one wanted them, so i am an animal lover BUT...yes BUT, I am always cautious of dogs, as is known I am autistic, as are my sons, and I am disgusted by dog owners who assume you have to love their dogs all over you.

I shoo dogs away as they upsert my son, i have had abuse doing it, tough, if I want a dog I'll get one. Dog owners want to remember not everyone wants or likes dogs

Take Widemouth Bay, Devon where I lived, NO dogs from Easter on, yet the locals still take their dogs on the beach where people have children, why assume thee children are happy with dogs, some are scared yet tell a local and get abuse.

Bumo_b

Very true that only God can tame wild animals, that being said evolution has played its part as well. As for playing God, surely executing anything is playing ultimate God, something I am not big enough to attempt Alej ! With the death and destruction us humans leave on the planet like a cancer, slowly wiping out our host, maybe we should take a different route. I’m no tree hugging snowflake, but as a race we ain’t doing too brilliant, and one less animal we exterminate is surely a good thing. As the score card goes, we are way ahead of our furry friends in the dangerous behaviour game!

Midnight

Bumo_b wrote:

Very true that only God can tame wild animals, that being said evolution has played its part as well. As for playing God, surely executing anything is playing ultimate God, something I am not big enough to attempt Alej ! With the death and destruction us humans leave on the planet like a cancer, slowly wiping out our host, maybe we should take a different route. I’m no tree hugging snowflake, but as a race we ain’t doing too brilliant, and one less animal we exterminate is surely a good thing. As the score card goes, we are way ahead of our furry friends in the dangerous behaviour game!

Lets leave non existant gods out of forums shall we

chris_bass

Bumo_b wrote:

Very true that only God can tame wild animals, that being said evolution has played its part as well. As for playing God, surely executing anything is playing ultimate God, something I am not big enough to attempt Alej ! With the death and destruction us humans leave on the planet like a cancer, slowly wiping out our host, maybe we should take a different route. I’m no tree hugging snowflake, but as a race we ain’t doing too brilliant, and one less animal we exterminate is surely a good thing. As the score card goes, we are way ahead of our furry friends in the dangerous behaviour game!

but of a huge assumption there - if animal X lives and goes on to injure/kill a variety of other animals is that a good thing?

anyway - if you believe in god you can't believe in freewill (god, by definition, already knows everything everyone/thing is going to do and has ever done) and therefore the dog has no choice and neither does the person killing it - but that's for a very different thread!

chris_bass

Midnight wrote:

lots of things

I agree with a lot of your post.

My grandparents always had dogs and just couldn't understand how anyone could not like them - if you said you didn't they almost seemed to think you were just joking or something.

luckily they always had tame/placid dogs (i think it was due to the being pretty good owners although i may be biased).

Bumo_b

I agree with a lot of what is written above, especially in relation to an animal that goes on to kill lots of other animals. There comes a point where a decision has to be made. However, when our first reaction is to kill , without considering the cause and not dealing with the cause and responsible individuals, that I have an issue with.

bristolpete

Irony.

Dog is an anagram of God.

Woof !

awavey

ultimately a dog is an animal that has like nearly all animals, and even humans, hard wired instincts, training is about trying to curb those instinctive behaviours, but it can never be foolproof and completely rewire their brain, so certainly with dogs that are from aggressive breeds, trying to curb those instinctive behaviours is pretty tough, I mean a dogs whole behaviour is based on being a pack animal that submits to its pack leader which it views as the owner in most cases, so this whole thing about the dog being a cuddly wuddly bundle of fun with its owner is just instinctive pack behaviour, and it wont think twice about not behaving the same way with you and almost certainly perceives strangers approaching their owners as hostile acts.

there was a program I remember watching on animal behaviours where they demonstrated even "well trained" placid breed dogs in situations where their owner was specifically told to act out they were having an argument with a stranger who had just randomly approached them in a normal environment, the dog was immediately alert and exhibiting pack behaviour to protect the owner, even if it was non vocalised through barking, because theyd been "trained" not to bark at stuff, you could see instantly the dog becomes stressed and its mood shifted to one of prepardness to attack, and you could see these dogs were literally at breaking point out of their training

so yeah I think there are bad owners, and good owners, and some breeds are less aggressively likely to attack than others, but I think all dogs have the propensity to revert to that attack instinct, however well you think youve trained them and part of the ownership responsibility of having a dog is understanding that and handling them on that basis, sadly not alot do.

Bumo_b

Look at many a bust up on a Saturday night at the pub, riotous behaviour in humans (France and the yellow vests), football violence etc and we are not much different. Once these individuals have displayed this “dangerous behaviour” do we execute them? Of course we don’t. As for evolution, we are slightly slower in progressing than dogs in many ways. After all a recent study found that dogs have made one of the shortest evolutionary jumps with puppy eye development.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/an ... unicate-us
Going back to my original point, We are not dealing with the causes of the issue. Maybe we should have licences to have dogs, but I seem to remember that there was an argument to have obtain a licence to have kids, something I’m not totally against these days.
For the record was I no saint. I caused mayhem as a teenager, not violent but certainly errant in many ways and created many dangerous situations and would of no doubt been put down at an early stage as a wild animal. Thankfully some do-gooder put a lot of hard work into me (my mum was a single parent who worked all hours to make ends meet) and certainly wouldn’t of got a licence at the time.

davidof

I was attacked by an Alsatian on my training ride once (a dog not a German speaking Frenchman). I was with a friend. We doubled back and found the dog was looking around his gate waiting for us to come by again, so we went and threw stones at it from behind. It didn't come out and attack us again that day or any other.

Wayne Plunger

His noise.