Tubeless virgins struggle
Comments
-
I can’t be bothered to cut and paste your tantrum about lock rings, it’s there for anyone who cares to look.
Calling troll when you’re found out is pathetic, yet you’d rather pollute the board with patently wrong information so the value the board brings is reduced to zero. There are many things I’m unfamiliar with the biggest trick is spotting “experts” when looking for an answer.0 -
thecycleclinic wrote:Ugo co2 should seat the tyre. Then remove the valve core and inject sealant and inflate with my hand pump. I have tested this before although I would need to clean the rim of any sealant residue to reduce friction. A second small sealed tub of soapy water (a 10ml bottle would help). I cant think of a suitable container though so water from my bottle would reduce friction enough to allow a seal. Fitting tyre like this will take 10 minutes.
I don't see how carrying spare sealant and a tub of soapy water is less hassle than carrying 2-3 inner tubes.
One thing that did bug me when I helped at a Mille event last year is what if someone shows up with a broken spoke and a tubelss tyre? How am I going to be able to fix that AND seal the tyre again, having to undo the rim tape and all... Obviously you will never break a spoke, but just to put another spanner in the works, so to speak...
left the forum March 20230 -
If someone uses tubeless and takes a tire with him because the event is extra long has nothing to do with the technology itself in my opinion. Similarly if someone is using tubes, would bring more.
Would you use your 25c tires/tubes on gravel and blame them when you puncture or understand that you used the wrong means/strategy for that specific ride?0 -
zefs wrote:If someone uses tubeless and takes a tire with him because the event is extra long has nothing to do with the technology itself in my opinion. Similarly if someone is using tubes, would bring more.
Would you use your 25c tires/tubes on gravel and blame them when you puncture or understand that you used the wrong means/strategy for that specific ride?
making preparations appropriate to the journey is sensible, the issue is wether Tubeless is more of a faff than inner tubes.
Since tubeless require more spares than tubed, are problematic in the event of a necessary repair and are no less susceptible to side wall damage than tubed, they are a performance limiter.
Quite aside from that, as ugo points out when things go wrong, as they will, on the go repairs to the wheel are potentially more difficult too.
I dont carry a spare tyre around apart from the one round my waist and expect to be able to repair slashes with a sidewall. I dont ride pbp maybe i would have an abundance of caution if i did. Road tubeless is (when the personal preference and buy in is removed from the equation ) a less practical solution.
Perhaps that will change in the future.0 -
Having an inner tube that is filled with air and can be punctured easily can't be better overall. If you worry so much about that one time that you get a sidewall puncture that can't be fixed, you could carry an inner tube and still use tubeless. It's about priorities but overall I would say it's a better technology, but it's pushed wrong (it's lighter/faster whatever so people buy the wrong tires for their riding conditions).
Maybe when airless tires evolve they could be an option as well.0 -
zefs wrote:Having an inner tube that is filled with air and can be punctured easily can't be better overall. If you worry so much about that one time that you get a sidewall puncture that can't be fixed, you could carry an inner tube and still use tubeless. It's about priorities but overall I would say it's a better technology, but it's pushed wrong (it's lighter/faster whatever so people buy the wrong tires for their riding conditions).
Maybe when airless tires evolve they could be an option as well.
Cant be better overall? Of course it can. drink the cool aid baby. So if you agree that its neither lighter nor real world faster what exactly is so great about it?
Presumably the ease of use, less cost, ?0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:zefs wrote:If someone uses tubeless and takes a tire with him because the event is extra long has nothing to do with the technology itself in my opinion. Similarly if someone is using tubes, would bring more.
Would you use your 25c tires/tubes on gravel and blame them when you puncture or understand that you used the wrong means/strategy for that specific ride?
making preparations appropriate to the journey is sensible, the issue is wether Tubeless is more of a faff than inner tubes.
Since tubeless require more spares than tubed, are problematic in the event of a necessary repair and are no less susceptible to side wall damage than tubed, they are a performance limiter.
Quite aside from that, as ugo points out when things go wrong, as they will, on the go repairs to the wheel are potentially more difficult too.
I dont carry a spare tyre around apart from the one round my waist and expect to be able to repair slashes with a sidewall. I dont ride pbp maybe i would have an abundance of caution if i did. Road tubeless is (when the personal preference and buy in is removed from the equation ) a less practical solution.
Perhaps that will change in the future.
Hardly any truth in that from my experience. I don't carry any more spares than when riding clinchers with now using tubeless. An inner tube for side splits or holes that can't be repaired. Tyre worms, patches, levers, CO2 and a split link. In 2 years of use, I've not had a puncture that I know of. I've ridden them on smooth surfaces and flint tracks without issue.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0 -
philthy3 wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:zefs wrote:If someone uses tubeless and takes a tire with him because the event is extra long has nothing to do with the technology itself in my opinion. Similarly if someone is using tubes, would bring more.
Would you use your 25c tires/tubes on gravel and blame them when you puncture or understand that you used the wrong means/strategy for that specific ride?
making preparations appropriate to the journey is sensible, the issue is wether Tubeless is more of a faff than inner tubes.
Since tubeless require more spares than tubed, are problematic in the event of a necessary repair and are no less susceptible to side wall damage than tubed, they are a performance limiter.
Quite aside from that, as ugo points out when things go wrong, as they will, on the go repairs to the wheel are potentially more difficult too.
I dont carry a spare tyre around apart from the one round my waist and expect to be able to repair slashes with a sidewall. I dont ride pbp maybe i would have an abundance of caution if i did. Road tubeless is (when the personal preference and buy in is removed from the equation ) a less practical solution.
Perhaps that will change in the future.
Hardly any truth in that from my experience. I don't carry any more spares than when riding clinchers with now using tubeless. An inner tube for side splits or holes that can't be repaired. Tyre worms, patches, levers, CO2 and a split link. In 2 years of use, I've not had a puncture that I know of. I've ridden them on smooth surfaces and flint tracks without issue.
Same experience of tubeless for me, maybe I'm just lucky.
I don't even bother with carrying a tube now so TBH I'm carrying less then when using clinchers.
I've had about 3 punctures, 2 sealed with the sealant, 1 was repaired roadside with a tire worm in far quicker time then it takes to change a tube.0 -
well Im going to leave the discussion now, its one of those subjects where strongly held beliefs make conversation pointless either way.
Whatever you chose to do, enjoy cycling.
0 -
Running Tubeless for 4 years now.
Biggest headache I found is the inconsistency with wheelsets. Zipp were the worse I had to swap back to tubes as tubeless did not work at all. Prime and Hunt wheelsets have been so easy with tubeless setup.
I've always run Schwalbe Pro Ones with only minor niggles. Tried Hutchinson Fusion 5 All season and found these to cut far easier than Pro Ones.
Sealants make a difference. Currently running Finish Line in one set of wheels I use for commuting on and it's held up well so far.
Orange sealant another good product. Muc Off was awful and couldn't seal a 3mm cut. Pink gunk everywhere!!
It is trial and error and personal preference.
I love fat rims, 25-28mm tires at around 60psi.
I ride with dynaplug kit, mini pump, tyre boot and a spare tube in the saddle pack.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:zefs wrote:Having an inner tube that is filled with air and can be punctured easily can't be better overall. If you worry so much about that one time that you get a sidewall puncture that can't be fixed, you could carry an inner tube and still use tubeless. It's about priorities but overall I would say it's a better technology, but it's pushed wrong (it's lighter/faster whatever so people buy the wrong tires for their riding conditions).
Maybe when airless tires evolve they could be an option as well.
Cant be better overall? Of course it can. drink the cool aid baby. So if you agree that its neither lighter nor real world faster what exactly is so great about it?
Presumably the ease of use, less cost, ?
I didn't say I agree, I said tubeless is being marketed incorrectly as lower weight and speed gain, while the biggest reason is elimination of punctures. Then you have the different wheel/tire/sealant choices that in some combinations do not work as they should.
That doesn't mean there are no options that work as intended and can be puncture proof. But that requires using the correct tires and sealant for your conditions (which for new users there is not much info out there and that is why we discuss here).
For me, I was getting 2-3 punctures per year (just an indication of riding conditions) and that has been eliminated with tubeless (1.5 years), only had to use a plug once which is done without removing the wheel and the tube.
So to sum up: More comfort with no speed loss, no pinch flats, less punctures, less stuff to carry (depending on situation) = a better system overall.0 -
With regards to speed and tubeless being faster, I'd say that tubeless allows you to run a faster, thinner tyre all year round due to the added security provided by the sealant.
I used Hutchinson Fusion 5 performances all winter where before I'd be using something like a Conti 4 Season.0 -
zefs wrote:
So to sum up: More comfort with no speed loss, no pinch flats, less punctures, less stuff to carry (depending on situation) = a better system overall.
With respect to comfort. Longest distance I have done with tubeless is 400 km in 18 hours... with tubes I have done 400 km in 18 hours and 600 km in 33 (24 moving). If I had to tell you that I noticed a difference in comfort one way or the other, I would be lying.
I have also done Paris-Roubaix with and without inner tubes with a large difference in pressure and can confirm that by the time you get to Carrefour de l'Arbre, you don't know anymore if you have tubeless or indeed if you have any tyre at all. It just fxxing hurts like hell.
You must be made of pretty sensitive material to notice this alleged extra comfortleft the forum March 20230 -
The extra comfort comes from the reduced tire pressures (you can use lower for the same speed - about 10psi - since the rolling resistance is less) but also the casing itself. Try a GP4000 and then a Hutchinson Performance TL the difference is noticeable both on the hand (casing can be stretched) and when riding. At least that was my experience from testing them back to back.
How can a 400km ride be a testing protocol?0 -
zefs wrote:
How can a 400km ride be a testing protocol?
How can it not be?
Surely you don't need comfort to do 30 miles... if comfort is needed, then surely it is in long distance cycling.
With tubeless I was running 60-80 PSI depending on size, with tubes I run 80-100 depending on size. No difference on a long day.
What makes a lot of difference is road surface. In Wales, where I can ride on A roads, I get less achy and tired than in the Peak District, where you are forced onto tiny rutted roads... tyre pressure makes almost zero difference, unless you go down to 20-30 PSI and 40-50 mm tyres, but then you get so much drag that you can't ride anymoreleft the forum March 20230 -
Because testing is done by keeping all the parameters the same and changing one thing (e.g tire).
This test basically shows you can use 20psi less with no speed penalty for tubeless tires:
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... 00-tl-2018
Let's say the difference is 10psi instead for real world, that is extra comfort.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:zefs wrote:
How can a 400km ride be a testing protocol?
How can it not be?
Surely you don't need comfort to do 30 miles... if comfort is needed, then surely it is in long distance cycling.
With tubeless I was running 60-80 PSI depending on size, with tubes I run 80-100 depending on size. No difference on a long day.
What makes a lot of difference is road surface. In Wales, where I can ride on A roads, I get less achy and tired than in the Peak District, where you are forced onto tiny rutted roads... tyre pressure makes almost zero difference, unless you go down to 20-30 PSI and 40-50 mm tyres, but then you get so much drag that you can't ride anymore
I beg to disagree, I moved onto GP4000's for a while after riding tubeless and the ride was noticeably harsher and jarring. Running tyres at 20psi less which tubeless allows provides a far more comfortable ride.
I do agree with you about the road surface making a huge difference.0 -
zefs wrote:
Let's say the difference is 10psi instead for real world, that is extra comfort.
I am sure it's extra comfort, whether you notice it or not, is down to how sensitive you are. I never noticed the extra comfort.
On the topic, I always seem to be able to tell the difference between a butted spoke and a non butted spoke and to me that difference is far greater than a 10-20 PSI pressure difference.
I can also tell if a tyre is shoot or it's quality, but not if it's tubeless or not and I can't tell the small pressure difference
So there you go, we are all differentleft the forum March 20230 -
Wow I noticed straight away the comfort level of tubeless at low PSI. Going from 95psi with tubes to 65psi on tubeless was a marked difference.
Bike handles far better as well.0 -
Horse shitbradsbeard wrote:Wow I noticed straight away the comfort level of tubeless at low PSI. Going from 95psi with tubes to 65psi on tubeless was a marked difference.
Bike handles far better as well.0 -
Plugged a tubeless puncture tonight. Priceless. It longer to the get thr kit out of the tool bottle than to plug it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
-
Plain gauge spokes make wheels feel dead. I dont know why.
In any case I find tubeless tyres more comfortable but let's not argue about it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
-
tubes make the rider more virile.0
-
Alejandrosdog wrote:
Horse shootbradsbeard wrote:Wow I noticed straight away the comfort level of tubeless at low PSI. Going from 95psi with tubes to 65psi on tubeless was a marked difference.
Bike handles far better as well.
Eh?0 -
So some feedback...
Checked with Vision about valve types and they confirmed that round valve bases are required (what i would refer to as conical) So i switched to the Milkit valves. I stripped back the rim tape, cleaned them really well and them re-taped them with 3 turns of Tessa 4289, them used a sharp bradawl to make a hole for the valves, these i pushed from the back with a wooden dowel to get them to seat correctly before tightening them up. Popped the tyres on and added plenty of soapy water, a quick go with the track pump and they both seated and popped nicely, then the valves heads came out and in went 50ml of Stans and voila we have now have well sealed TL tyres that have since done about 500km up the Semnoz, La Planche des Belle Filles and Ventoux with only minor pressures loss, say 1psi a day which i can easily live with.
Since added a MaXalami worm kit into my tool bottle but have kept an inner tube in there for now, i'm not that brave yet !
My wheels feel so much better and really zip along nicely (no pun as they are Vision rims) but roads are just so much smoother than before, really the best upgrade i've made since adding some decent wheels on my bike. I'm a lardy arse 81kgs but i'm now running at 45psi front and 50psi rear and life is smooth
0 -
after most people have been riding a few years they become hardened to the must have marketing with its dubious science. Tubeless is at best a mixed experience for people.
some of you sound like youd feel the pea under 20 mattresses. HTFU0 -
It's only a mixed bag for those not knowing what they are doing and picking the wrong kit. Again I manage to avoid these problems. There's a learning curve which I try to help people along if they are willing. If your not fond of tubeless that's fine you don't have to be but why slate a technology that does work.
Most problems though are installation error as the above post proved. It requires skill and this has to be learnt. If your tyres unseat from the rim without air easily, weak retention is not good enough (to test ride the tyre flat after it been on with sealant for couple of days) then carry a tube as you might find when plugging a side wall puncture the tyre unseats. I'd ont carry a tube as my tyre rim combo retain the tyre well enough that the risk of the tyre unseating is minimal.
That's the only caveat with you only need tyre plugs.
Of course queue the one, we know who, who will claim I am contradicting myself. Which I am not. I have said this before and is mentioned not just in passing on my tech pages.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:after most people have been riding a few years they become hardened to the must have marketing with its dubious science. Tubeless is at best a mixed experience for people.
some of you sound like youd feel the pea under 20 mattresses. HTFU
Obviously you are entitled to your views. Have you ever actually tried or experienced tubeless yourself? Or are your views based entirely on anecdotal evidence?
I use IRC tyres and have not any issues in over two years, so am a convert. They are definitely more comfortable than any previous tyres I have ridden including Vittoria Corsa which were my previous preference for summer use.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:So the biggest supporter of tubeless recommends taking a spare tyre when you go out?????
Presumably one of
Those massive pumps to get it seated and a bottle
Of sealant too.
I've been using tubeless on my road bike for 6/7 years (7k miles per year) and never carried a spare tyre (bike tyre). Only been picked up by the wife once when I hit a water-filled pothole and tore a huge hole in the sidewall. I just carry some plugs and a pump/inflator and they get me home no problem.
I usually repair the tyre with a patch on the inside if the hole is big enough to lose pressure.0
