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Tubeless virgins struggle

ridgeway_swissridgeway_swiss Posts: 146
edited July 2019 in Workshop
I can't only blame my lack of experience and perhaps some poor choices but i'm struggling to seal some Conti 5000 TL on my Vision Trimax 40 TLR rims. Loads of mistakes and loads of learning so far but looks like i'll be throwing some inner tubes in for the weekend.....

Main issue now is that i cannot get the valves to seal, i assume it's the valves ?

I wasn't sure which gasket/seal to use on the valves, the Muck off ones came with both conical types already on plus some more specific shaped ones that i'd say were a block with a small cylinder on them, not sure which one i'm supposed to use....

So gave up with them and tried some Milkit valves which have the conical seal built in, all good i thought but still no success.....

Beyond all that a ton of others issues that were largely my fault but i have to say even after reading a lot on this and watching a lot of videos the process of going TL has been extremely frustrating so far and mainly as it seems there's no clear and obvious process to it, i can't even find which valves seals my rims take as a starting point.
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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Take it to a shop then. We can guess in the scatter gun approach as to what your problem is but that may not help much.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Theres a reason no one bothered with tubeless on the road for decades after the off roaders coverted. And then the need for selling new bikes reared its head when the bulge of interest in road cycling subsided and so wider tyres, disc brakes and tubeless with the associated new frames, wheels, tyres and tools was thrust upon an eager public.

    All underwritten by dubious technical claims.

    In the real world road tubeless has been a "mixed" success. Stick with tubes and save the time money and hassle associated with going tubeless and then returning.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443
    It can be a faff. I've used tubeless tyres for 4 years, before going back to clinchers. Practicality and cost being the main reasons, but also reliability. Tubeless tyres seem to suffer from issues, like unpredictable slow loss of pressure, punctures in clusters in high temperatures, seizing of vital parts of the system, like valves and valve retainers
  • orlokorlok Posts: 87
    It can be a faff. I've used tubeless tyres for 4 years, before going back to clinchers. Practicality and cost being the main reasons, but also reliability. Tubeless tyres seem to suffer from issues, like unpredictable slow loss of pressure, punctures in clusters in high temperatures, seizing of vital parts of the system, like valves and valve retainers
    I can't imagine that someone riding for 4 years tubeless get back to clinchers with inner tubes. :roll:
    There will be always a moment of tailwind.
    Pinarello F8/10 - Ultegra 6800 - Carbonspeed C38 UST - Tubeless
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443
    Orlok wrote:
    It can be a faff. I've used tubeless tyres for 4 years, before going back to clinchers. Practicality and cost being the main reasons, but also reliability. Tubeless tyres seem to suffer from issues, like unpredictable slow loss of pressure, punctures in clusters in high temperatures, seizing of vital parts of the system, like valves and valve retainers
    I can't imagine that someone riding for 4 years tubeless get back to clinchers with inner tubes. :roll:

    Priorities change... I went through a phase when I could get tubeless tyres for free... by reviewing them... then there was a pahse when I could buy Hutch tyres cheap... after which I was facing the reality of 40 quid + per tyre, which just doesn't work with the miles I do. A set of tyres lasts 3-4 months typically
  • zefszefs Posts: 484
    Try to push the valve with your thumb a bit and then tighten the lock ring to avoid air gaps on the rim hole.
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 242
    Have you watched cycleclinics video? Did you tap the valve home with a soft mallet?
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    yellowv2 wrote:
    Have you watched cycleclinics video? Did you tap the valve home with a soft mallet?


    mmmm a softmallet to be added to your riding toolkit.
  • To be honest i've knocked it on the head for now having installed some inner tubes, ok i gave up.....

    My learning so far is that tubeless must be more prone to failure of some sorts vs inner tubes even if it brings other advantages.

    I am going to contact Vision to find out what valves they recommend and look into it a bit more.

    The GP5000's so far look like very nice tyres, super grippy although anything is in this heat, lets see how they cope in the wet.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Alot if the comments above are based in ignorance (the dictionary definition).

    There is plenty if tubeless kit out there that is not not fit for purpose. That's the cause if the problems and differing ideas about what tubeless means from manufacturers.

    Back to the valves. Nsl make the valves for vision and dt swiss. My tubeless valves are made by nsl. So I think these valves could solve your problem.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443

    My learning so far is that tubeless must be more prone to failure of some sorts vs inner tubes even if it brings other advantages.

    .

    In a nutshell, yes.

    If you ride on roads which are puncture prone, then tubeless might be less hassle than clinchers. But if you puncture rarely, then tubeless is definitively more hassle than clinchers.
    Ride quality is very similar for similar money. Haven't found any tubeless that is better than a pair of Vittoria Corsa
  • yellowv2yellowv2 Posts: 242
    yellowv2 wrote:
    Have you watched cycleclinics video? Did you tap the valve home with a soft mallet?


    mmmm a softmallet to be added to your riding toolkit.

    Not sure you understand, the valve would not be fitted or need adjusting at the roadside! It would be done in the garage at home when fitting the tyre!!
  • alanyualanyu Posts: 73
    I've met with the same problem with a hand-built wheelset. The rear wheel is all Ok but the front one leaks at the valve. My solution is: one more layer tape, and use a electric soldering iron to "burn" a hole through the tape, which is smaller than the valve.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited June 2019
    Funny how I avoid these problems. I ride more miles than many and I simply cant be bothered heading out with a saddle bag full of tubes for a long ride. How many tubes should one carry for pbp? with tubeless some plugs and a spare tyre is all I need.

    That's the deal . My back pocket is no longer full of tubes. I have space to carry other stuff now. That's priceless to me. I also find tubeless tyres well the ones I use to be more reliable than the tubed tyres I used to use which were mostly vittoria pave/corsa and conti gp40000s/gp4seasons/gatorskin/gatorskin hardshell. A conti would be squared or holed by 2000km which is utterly rubbish. The vittoria's punctured the moment they saw a damp road which was not very useful either.

    The tubeless tures I use are

    conti gp5000tl which in my view are a great tt tyre but not so great as a all weather tyre. They square off quickly as well. £52 each. Too expensive for a tyre with a shortish life.

    Schwalbe pro one and the old one. Umm never got on with these, puncture prone.

    Hutchinson fusion5 all season. I like these alot. The sell for £34 but 3000km is all I get from them. For the money though these are good tyres. I will use them again. Oh they grip well in the wet and a pretty comfortable too.

    Mavic yskion ust which is just like the fusion 5 performance. A fine tyre. Ran them through winter with a handful of puncture. 3000km of use. £42 each but the hutchinson tyre is cheaper so why do these exist.

    Good year eagle, probably the most uncomfortable tubeless tyre I have used. Otherwise they fine but the tread bubbled and while they went back.on warranty I have heard nothing since. £60 the test did not last long enough to see if they wear out quickly. Form a comfort point of view never again.

    Maxxus padrone - very baggy fit. This makes them difficult to set up in many rims. If 6 layers of tape and a compressor are needed then it not really tubeless compatible. That said once up they tied fairly well and the rear tyre on my audax bike is holding up well. On oancenti sl23 rims they inflate with s compressor with 2 layers if tape. Good old pacenti there rim sizing has it uses after all.

    IRC roadlite fast and very comfortable. Not the most puncture resistant but not bad either. £45. Wet grip is not outstanding either but it's fair.

    IRC formula pro RBCC. £55 so quite expensive and not bullet proof but the puncture resistance is reasonable enough that you stand a good chance of wearing one out. Comfort is good but the tyres size small or only the correct size on 19mm Internal width rims. Wet grip is outstanding.

    IRC formula pro x guard. Same price as the rbcc and it uses the same compound but it has a puncture protection belt. Good puncture resistance a bit slower but not much compared to the others and Hutchinson fusion5 all season levels of grip which is pretty good. Like the rbcc tyre 6000km is what I get from the rear.

    I have yet to find a clincher tyre for tubes that i can depend on.

    I have yet to try the new vittoria tubeless tyres. Verdesteins are in the list too.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443
    How many tubes should one carry for pbp?

    .

    I suppose the 2-3 tubes that people carry are nothing compared to the rest of the kit. I really don't see the problem, it's a ride through France, not Alaska, you can buy inner tubes if you need them... and I bet they have inner tubes at the official controls too.
    Of all the accounts I have read of PBP, none mentions the struggle with inner tubes. Sleep deprivation, heat and night time cold seem to be the main issues people talk about, not punctures.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 2,100
    Funny how I avoid these problems. I ride more miles than many and I simply cant be bothered heading out with a saddle bag full of tubes for a long ride. How many tubes should one carry for pbp? Or with tubeless some plugs and a spare tyre is all I need.

    What, carrying a spare tyre is easier than a couple of tubes and a patch kit? As others have said, on something like the PBP there are bike shops available where you could always buy extra tubes/ patches if you needed them. How many punctures does one suffer on PBP in general?

    For normal riding in this country I carry a tube and some self adhesive patches in case of a double puncture. Seems to work fine for me for rides of 100 miles +, never been stranded.

    PP
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207

    My learning so far is that tubeless must be more prone to failure of some sorts vs inner tubes even if it brings other advantages.

    .

    In a nutshell, yes.

    If you ride on roads which are puncture prone, then tubeless might be less hassle than clinchers. But if you puncture rarely, then tubeless is definitively more hassle than clinchers.
    Ride quality is very similar for similar money. Haven't found any tubeless that is better than a pair of Vittoria Corsa

    Yet again, ugo makes a claim so we have to assume it is true. Utter nonsense. Have used tubeless for over 2 years now without issue. If I've had a puncture, I don't know about it. Pressure loss? I always check my tyre pressures before riding just as I did when riding with clinchers and tubs. Fitting? Using the correct valves and tyres for the rim means no problems with seating and inflating.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443
    philthy3 wrote:
    Using the correct valves and tyres for the rim means no problems with seating and inflating.

    Some might say that you are reducing the already limited choice even further, in order to have the tyre that fits the rim correctly, so that inflation is easy.

    If you are a convert, that's great, I was but then had a change of heart
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    So the biggest supporter of tubeless recommends taking a spare tyre when you go out?????

    Presumably one of
    Those massive pumps to get it seated and a bottle
    Of sealant too.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    Funny how I avoid these problems. I ride more miles than many and I simply cant be bothered heading out with a saddle bag full of tubes for a long ride. How many tubes should one carry for pbp? Or with tubeless some plugs and a spare tyre is all I need.

    What, carrying a spare tyre is easier than a couple of tubes and a patch kit? As others have said, on something like the PBP there are bike shops available where you could always buy extra tubes/ patches if you needed them. How many punctures does one suffer on PBP in general?

    For normal riding in this country I carry a tube and some self adhesive patches in case of a double puncture. Seems to work fine for me for rides of 100 miles +, never been stranded.

    PP

    I think some people live in an alternative reality PP

    Cycle clinic is one of them
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 2,100
    philthy3 wrote:
    Using the correct valves and tyres for the rim means no problems with seating and inflating.

    Some might say that you are reducing the already limited choice even further, in order to have the tyre that fits the rim correctly, so that inflation is easy.

    If you are a convert, that's great, I was but then had a change of heart

    That’s my understanding too - no industry standard rim/ tyre bead design yet so you have to be careful with tyre and wheel choice if going tubeless to ensure compatibility. Also the fact that not all sealants are designed to use with higher pressure road tyres can lead to spraying yourself and your bike with sealant when you puncture with variable chance of sealing - saw this just a few weeks ago on a wet, cold ride to the Eureka when a mate punctured. Sealant everywhere, eventually stopped when he put the puncture down in contact with the road, which then sealed but at vastly reduced pressure. He borrowed a track pump at the cafe to pump it back up upon which the sealant blew again. Ended up putting a tube in and getting very messy.

    Add to that the possible problems associated with unseating a bead and not being able to get it to seat and seal again roadside without the use of CO2 and the lack of compatibility of CO2 and some sealants meaning any subsequent hole may not seal and I’m not convinced yet about the ‘advantages’.

    For me, tubes are simple. I carry one spare and some self adhesive patches. When I puncture (which is a rarity - one so far this year and only two last year) I can simply pop a new tube in after checking the tyre for the culprit and re-inflate with no issues and be on my way. Simple. Add to this the fact that I have a vast array of tyre, rim and inner tube choices, all of which will work together pretty much and I’m happy.

    I’ve never been a first adopter of anything, always preferring to wait until the technology has been developed further, problems ironed out and simplicity and reliability have become the norm. I personally don’t think road tubeless is there yet.

    PP
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited June 2019
    Pbp is 1200km. I would carry a spare tyre if I was using tubed tyres.

    I am not going to rely on buying tubes on route. On Sunday not much is open in France.

    A few tubes and patches is a risk. That how people end up dropping out. All you need is a tyre that keeps on puncturing to loose a few hours and pbp failure results.

    With my paranio and my luck with tyres I would have to pack at least 6 tubes. I have gone through 5 tubes on a 80km ride before so my paranio is not unreasonable.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Alejandrosdog your post is offensive. Forst I would only pack a spare tyre for a ride like pbp not a shorter ride. So this proves you cant read a post. I have done many a ride and been stranded with tubes. Just because your charmed and p fairy rarely visits does not mean she does not visit others more frequently.

    Not an alternate reality. My comments are based on my experience.

    Patches are hit and miss. While you can get a tube going again it's not always leak free and it wise to replace the patches tube as soon as you get a new tube.

    My kit of a spare tubeless tyre, plug kit and some co2 (which I would carry anyway in addition to a pump because what of your pump failed or was lost) and a 60ml bottle of sealant is lighter and packs smaller than a spare tyre and 6 tubes.

    The reason for the spare tyre is side wall slashes. All it takes is sharp bit of metal to obliterate your tyre or a stone in the road that you hit at night and a pinch flat can In either case it quicker to replace the tyre tjan trying to fix it weather your using tubes or tubeless. I think many pbp rider carry a spare tyre.

    I pack based on prior experience and I will take no chance with the 80hr time. There is not much margin for error. I have to manage nearly 400km a day. The only down time I can afford is for eating and sleeping. Mechanicals are not allowed.

    For todays ride 70km and most rides I do even rides up to 400 miles all I had to carry is tyre plugs and a pump. That's simpler than than a tube and patches and more reliable a fix as well.

    So i think the comments made are based on ignorance of requirements for long distance riding were your self reliant. That's the principal of audaxing. Not relying on others and not assuming there will be supplies on route. Controls can run out so being reliant on them is unwise. I will not be following your advise.

    If you over pack a bit then thats fine. If you under pack your become a burden on others.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • pilot_petepilot_pete Posts: 2,100
    I accept your explanation regarding long, self reliant audaxing, but really, that many punctures? I know they can happen to anyone, with any combination of tyre choice, but that’s an awful lot of punctures in such a short distance when I and most of the cyclists I know ride thousands of miles only suffering the occasional flat. Are the roads in northern France that much worse than elsewhere? Surely there are quite robust tyres around which would lower the incidence at the expense of a little feel/ grip and speed which would be very suitable for when not puncturing is the priority over out and out performance?

    PP

    Oh, and p.s. I’ve never failed to fix a puncture roadside with a spare tube and/ or a patch. Not sure what is so unreliable about them in your opinion? I’ve never had one leak if it is patched properly, although I always change for a new tube when I get home... as opposed to seeing a mates tubeless puncture not seal, then blow out when he later pumped it up and had another mate tell me of his woes when his tyre didn’t seal and came off the beads - he ended up calling his wife to pick him up as he couldn’t get it to seal with CO2 and broke his tyre levers trying to get it off to put a tube in. That sounds less reliable a fix to me...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I have had, on new gp 4 seasons 20 miles in, a big puncture in the front then half a mile later a big one in the rear and then no tubes left.

    So yes I no longer takes chances. I have packed too light too often for long rides and it's been touch and goes and had to rely in the kindness of strangers. I have learnt from all this. Also if its raining trying to patch a tube becomes miserable and more difficult if it dark and wet and your patching due to no tubes then it's worse than miserable. Then add fatigue and you have a recipe for leaks and i know what I'm doing. Since I have been in a these situations before and dont care to repeat them I pack accordingly.

    IRC tyre levers dont break. That's what I carry.

    I already use reliable tubeless tyres. They are called the IRC formula pro x guard but they have air in them. They can puncture, pinch or slash even if it's unlikely. Set of on pbp or any ultra, assuming that your schwalbe duranos or robust tubeless tyre will see you through so all you need is minimal spares is asking for trouble. Even with schwalbe duranos for 1000km+ ride I would package spare folder. For the space and weight it takes you have to ask why wouldn't you. Its foolish not too.

    Also northern France is not somewhere I know. I dont know how many bike shops are on there way, what the opening times are or what repair facilities there will be at the controls. That information is not available and I would assume it ti be unreliable as it's not first hand so I will self sufficient except for about 70% of the calories required which will consumed at controls or bought along the way. The remainder will be in my panniers. I dont think the French do 24 hrs garages so night time fuelling is difficult and I dont think there is food at every control.

    You should how I pack for a 24hr tt. I put calories for a 48hr in the van because I dont know how hungry I'll be. On the last 400km I did I put so much food in the bag that the was enough left over for tbe 600km the week after. I dont know what will be open, how quickly I will get through the controls and bonking is not pleasant. Having excess food is essential. Been caught before and its nasty. Picture midnight on a Sunday in late November 200 miles in with 30 to go and it's a barely above freezing and you run out of food. Your riding on fumes, the shortest route has no food food stops and your core temp is dropping to the point that freewheeling down hills makes you so cold its unbearable. Add to that your main light died hours ago (circuit failure) and you have been on the emergency light which just about makes you visible but not sufficient light to light the road ahead. Touch and go is nasty. I got home though and my wife said I felt like an ice cube crawling into bed.

    Like I said. I have done a fair few long rides and had all kinds of issues and I have learnt from each one. Like carry spare lights because lighting can fail even if the battery has charge. I carry a cat eye volt1700 and a spare battery for it and a couple of cateye volt 300 just in case. That's also over 24hrs of burn time so I can lend a light if someone's in trouble.

    I'll will even work out prior to setting off what the magic gear is for the audax bike in case my rear derailleur looses the plot and shears off. Just had that happen on an eps bike 80km from home (vegitation got caught in the rd) and had to single speed it which worked but I was luckly that there were two magic gears but one was more magic than the other with the 12-29t cassette I had. I will fit a cassette that allows a perfect magic gear on the audax bike. Thats preparation or paranoia.

    All the tubeless issues brought up in this thread have solutions. I have found them and use them and my solutions have evolved over time as new problems have been encountered. It's not rocket science but all your tubeless kit has to be fit for purpose.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    The cycle clinic,

    You might find my post offensive but in these boards you advocate the use of tubeless with so many inconsistencies it is laughable.

    Now your recommending carrying a spare tyre in case of sidewall cuts (a very real possibility in the areas of the country with chalk and flint) yet previously you’ve championed the use of plugs which according to you when properly used can deal with anything, you apparently have never had a problem they can’t solve and yet here you are contradicting yourself.

    Outside of this in the other thread you were posting incorrect information about the correct torque to tighten a cassette on a wheel. Your advice is poor, inconsistent and in many cases just plain wrong or opinion stated as fact.

    When people come here for help or advice they are in many cases unable to discern the truth or likely truth and take the advice that’s given. I hope the advice given to people in your shop is more appropriate than the drivel spouted here.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,443
    Carrying a spare tyre is not a bad strategy, although I'd like to see how you are going to make it tubeless and seal it at the side of the road.
  • Alot if the comments above are based in ignorance (the dictionary definition).

    There is plenty if tubeless kit out there that is not not fit for purpose. That's the cause if the problems and differing ideas about what tubeless means from manufacturers.

    Back to the valves. Nsl make the valves for vision and dt swiss. My tubeless valves are made by nsl. So I think these valves could solve your problem.

    Hi can you remember which NSL valves were recommended for Vision rims ?
  • yellowv2 wrote:
    Have you watched cycleclinics video? Did you tap the valve home with a soft mallet?

    will watch tonight.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Alejandrosdog There is nothing inconsistent in what I say in this thread. 40nm for cassette lockring torque is still correct. Ask shimano and there training centre will say what I say. the average if 30 to 50nm as there lockring state is 40 nm. . That's correct it still is. Only you think it's wrong.

    Plugs can fix many things but side wall damage is not just caused by sharp objects slicing the tyre. It can be caused by impacts with stones or holes I.e a pich flat. In either case a plugs repair will be a low pressure one to get you somewhere where the tyre should be changed or get you home. A thumb sized hole or 5mm pinch flat hole at the bead cannot not be repaired with patch or plugs and hold 80 psi indefinitely. I have never claimed that nor will I. Such holes can hold 15 psi to 30 psi depending on there size. you then ride with care although you can ride a fair way on such low pressure repairs.

    This goes for tubed tyres. A boot repair is also temporary and tyre should be changed as soon as is practical. If this happens sunday night I.e the first day I will loose enough time that a finish wont be possible if I dont have a spare tyre. If you have a spare tyre and means to change it then doing that there and then save time and you have a more pleasant ride. This is not rocket science and is entirely consistent with what is been said previously. It is a shame you cant see that and it's taken the detailed post to explain this to you.

    Ugo co2 should seat the tyre. Then remove the valve core and inject sealant and inflate with my hand pump. I have tested this before although I would need to clean the rim of any sealant residue to reduce friction. A second small sealed tub of soapy water (a 10ml bottle would help). I cant think of a suitable container though so water from my bottle would reduce friction enough to allow a seal. Fitting tyre like this will take 10 minutes.


    This thread has highlighted the problem with forums. Trolling is not on.

    Wind wave should sell them sutitae valves. They are the vision importer. I can check for you but any vision dealer should be able too. Nsl make two types of vales but they are both interchangeable when it come to vision wheels as far as I know. The valve I stock I think is the same type as what dt swiss use. The other version fits a broader range of rims with deeper channels due to the interchangeable heads. This is were conical heads have an advantage. They fit most rims but have have to hammered in (lightly) but also have to be hammered out. If you have a semi tubeless setup where the tyre unseats as pilot Pete has seen at the roadside then fitting tube which is sometimes the only option can be a problem. Unless you can find an appropriate hammer head to knock the conical head valve out then your in trouble. Since some people still carry emergency tubes over plugs with tubeles wheels and tyres I feel I have to offer valves that push out by hand hense I switched valve type. Nothing inconsistent here.

    Only valves with conical heads really need tapping in witha mallet. Many of the oblong type valves dont. They seem to seal by just dropping in. Hense tapped it home is a cover all to make advise simple. Something that
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
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