Discrimination Against Car Drivers

2

Comments

  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
    That's another good thing about buying mine recently :) - it seems that from 2022 there will be some electronic nanny in all new cars. I tend to keep my cars a long time as well.

    You say that now but there'll be a new shiny thing along shortly that you'll fall in love with. Before ditching that one too a year or two later..... :wink:

    Limiters are a good thing for environmental reasons too.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    bompington wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    ... a very rare event...
    ...The evidence would suggest that the later group are likely to take themselves out the gene pool pretty quickly...
    Well, which one is it?

    I for one am amazed how many careless car drivers there must be on those bank holiday special routes that bikers take themselves out on so frequently.

    Personally I would limit motorbikes a long time before cars, just on the grounds of noise - my home has a delightful rural setting that I'm very thankful for, about the only thing that spoils the tranquility is the sound of the donors heading off up the Braemar road, two miles away and over a hill.

    Good bit of selective quoting from too separate paragraphs to create some apparent confusion. If we buy you a noise meter will it stop you posting on a cycling forum and let you be at one with your natural calling of harassing the local council enforcement team? Are you also amazed at all the careless car drivers that seem to be able to kill cyclists with insane regularity?
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    john80 wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    john80 wrote:
    ... a very rare event...
    ...The evidence would suggest that the later group are likely to take themselves out the gene pool pretty quickly...
    Well, which one is it?

    I for one am amazed how many careless car drivers there must be on those bank holiday special routes that bikers take themselves out on so frequently.

    Personally I would limit motorbikes a long time before cars, just on the grounds of noise - my home has a delightful rural setting that I'm very thankful for, about the only thing that spoils the tranquility is the sound of the donors heading off up the Braemar road, two miles away and over a hill.

    Good bit of selective quoting from too separate paragraphs to create some apparent confusion. If we buy you a noise meter will it stop you posting on a cycling forum and let you be at one with your natural calling of harassing the local council enforcement team? Are you also amazed at all the careless car drivers that seem to be able to kill cyclists with insane regularity?
    :roll:
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    BigMat wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
    That's another good thing about buying mine recently :) - it seems that from 2022 there will be some electronic nanny in all new cars. I tend to keep my cars a long time as well.

    So you can drive your car like a fool with impunity? Surely you're on the wrong forum. I never understand why people complain about measures being taken to prevent people breaking the law. Speed cameras, speed limiters, whatever, they are only preventing people doing something illegal and antisocial. I suppose any measure that discriminates against one group is potentially unfair (think stop and search) and maybefront number plate recognition falls into that category if nothing is being done to target motorbikes, but surely the answer is to do something to target them as well, rather than to stop targetting cars?
    Where did I say that?

    I'm pretty safe - maxed out on my no claims discount and have never had speeding ticket/fine/points on my license. What I don't want is some electronic nanny distracting me from paying attention to the road if I inadvertently stray over the limit or need to accelerate out of danger. We're all people trying to get places - I just happen to want to enjoy getting there.

    Interesting also that many of our enlightened European partners have higher limits, so I can legally do 75 or 80 in various countries and yet if I did that in the UK apparently that's wrong and dangerous. Shows how judgmental the setting of these limits can be.

    As I've said above, speed is only one factor in road safety and speed cameras do nothing to address other road safety issues. But they do generate fines, which is probably why they are a popular choice with the authorities.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    I really think you over-estimate how much speeding fines generate. I would be surprised if it was over 100 million per year, not including costs.
    _
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    john80 wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    You've never cycled popular biker routes much I take it. Try Devil's Bridge past Bardon and you'll know what I mean. Or one of the routes from the m6 to there either side of the TT week. Risk taking is very bad. But the blame on deaths is effectively being put on 4 wheeled vehicles judging by all the "think bike" signs around the area. It's not car drivers who need to think IMHO.

    On another related matter, do you think a car driver is going to carry on as normal after getting a risk taking motorcyclist through their windscreen? It's more than the biker that gets affected by the lunacy of these risk taking bikers.

    Having said that you're right about the statistics being worse for 4 wheeled vehicles (which probably do more miles and are greater in number which may skew figures possibly). However if there's enforcement for one type of vehicle there's no reason for enforcement to include bikes since it's cost effective to catch both of speeding or without whatever taxes they need to pay. Especially if the actions taken are the same at the same time.

    Bikers are the highest danger group per km travelled by some margin. Your argument above is an emotional response for a very rare event.
    Excuse the selective quoting but I must correct you on that. I was taking an emotional response but describing a set of conditions that increase road risks for all users. Namely routes popular with a subset of bikers. On those routes, as described, the bikers aren't a minority risk but a majority risk. It's probably hard to realise the risks involved without riding a bike or driving a car on those roads, especially at the times of year I mentioned, either side of the TT. These routes are for the most part bending, country lanes with blind bends and local traffic (except for the odd visitors and the bikers). The bikers use it like a race track taking the bends at speed and using the whole of the road.

    I was not discussing general biking but the supersport / racer types that round those areas are the majority of bikers. Namely specific risls and dangers. Not emotion but a fact you can see for yourself. Just be prepared to pull into the hedge to avoid bikers two (or rarely more but it happens) across racing. I'm also not condemning the majority of bikers, they are not a homogenous group (heard that claim about cyclists too). However in some places(there are more across the country) they are a bigger hazard and not just to themselves.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    Rolf F wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
    That's another good thing about buying mine recently :) - it seems that from 2022 there will be some electronic nanny in all new cars. I tend to keep my cars a long time as well.

    You say that now but there'll be a new shiny thing along shortly that you'll fall in love with. Before ditching that one too a year or two later..... :wink:

    Limiters are a good thing for environmental reasons too.
    Oh, I dunno. I'm very happy with my new car, but in any event if they do bring in the electronic nannnies then I won't be rushing to buy a car fitted with one.

    If you read what they are proposing, it isn't actually a limiter. More a sort of automatic finger wagging device which can be over-ridden by the driver. Clearly that's only the start but I'll probably be too old to care before they take all the fun out of driving :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I really think you over-estimate how much speeding fines generate. I would be surprised if it was over 100 million per year, not including costs.
    I didn't make any estimate. But £100m (which sounds about right) is still better than nothing from cash hungry authorities point of view.

    The bigger opportunity to milk motorists is parking.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I really think you over-estimate how much speeding fines generate. I would be surprised if it was over 100 million per year, not including costs.
    I didn't make any estimate. But £100m (which sounds about right) is still better than nothing from cash hungry authorities point of view.
    and don't forget the increased insurance premiums as a result ...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    Is driving fun when you go too fast? I've never understood what fun there is in driving. I like that a car takes me to where I need to be.
  • surfercyclist
    surfercyclist Posts: 894
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Is driving fun when you go too fast?

    Yes
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Is driving fun when you go too fast?
    Absolutely ... and with a noisy exhaust too ...
    helps if you've got stiffened suspension and rear wheel drive ...
    even better if it's a soft top and it's folded down....

    I loved my sports cars.

    Bit too sensible for all that now of course ... :o

    reminds me seeing some "kids" playing on the water a few weeks ago - another club member saying how foolish they were - but agreed with me that he'd be out there given half the chance ... ;)
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Is driving fun when you go too fast? I've never understood what fun there is in driving. I like that a car takes me to where I need to be.
    Driving can be fun for sure, that's why there are so many enthusiasts. Unfortunately on a forum like this, some simply don't get it and never will. I'd offer to cure you if you felt I was of any use :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    Slowbike wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Is driving fun when you go too fast?
    Absolutely ... and with a noisy exhaust too ...
    helps if you've got stiffened suspension and rear wheel drive ...
    even better if it's a soft top and it's folded down....

    I loved my sports cars.

    Bit too sensible for all that now of course ... :o

    reminds me seeing some "kids" playing on the water a few weeks ago - another club member saying how foolish they were - but agreed with me that he'd be out there given half the chance ... ;)
    RWD - tick. Stiff suspension - tick. Noisy exhaust - tick 8) Although I reckon you're wrong about one bit Slowbike: you're never too sensible for all that. Life's too short to drive a boring car :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    _
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Although I reckon you're wrong about one bit Slowbike: you're never too sensible for all that. Life's too short to drive a boring car :)
    I need the driving licence ... it's clean so far - intend to keep it that way. ;)

    drifting around a roundabout with another vehicle alongside was great ;)
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    you're obviously too young to remember the clear roads we used to "race" around.

    Anyway - IIRC, 1/2 the problem after racing - gokart or otherwise - was that it took a while to switch back to normal driving mode ... so though it was fun, it's not the same as open road driving. Bit like riding around a velodrome is great ... for a while ..
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    you're obviously too young to remember the clear roads we used to "race" around.

    Anyway - IIRC, 1/2 the problem after racing - gokart or otherwise - was that it took a while to switch back to normal driving mode ... so though it was fun, it's not the same as open road driving. Bit like riding around a velodrome is great ... for a while ..
    Hee hee hee. Traffic hold-ups round here mean slowing down for 30 seconds behind a tractor before you can overtake it.

    And driving a 3-cylinder Kia helps me keep my licence - although I have just last month celebrated getting a clean licence again after being clocked on the motorway a while back, allegedly at a faster speed than I have ever seen on its speedo
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    bompington wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    you're obviously too young to remember the clear roads we used to "race" around.

    Anyway - IIRC, 1/2 the problem after racing - gokart or otherwise - was that it took a while to switch back to normal driving mode ... so though it was fun, it's not the same as open road driving. Bit like riding around a velodrome is great ... for a while ..
    Hee hee hee. Traffic hold-ups round here mean slowing down for 30 seconds behind a tractor before you can overtake it.

    And driving a 3-cylinder Kia helps me keep my licence - although I have just last month celebrated getting a clean licence again after being clocked on the motorway a while back, allegedly at a faster speed than I have ever seen on its speedo

    Perhaps you should keep an eye on that speedo - tricky little sods - it's amazing what they can get up to when you're not looking.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    I know fast drivers are annoying - and quite often dangerous - but driving can be fun, and it can be safe whilst still being fast.
    I do feel sorry for the kids who will grow up into the only option of self driving cars as that element of fun will be removed.

    We seem to prescribe safety to the lowest common denominator at the drop of a hat - affecting everybody, safe driver or not. It seems we don't like others having "fun" even if they're not affecting anyone else. It's not helped by people blaming everyone else for their own mistakes.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Sports cars, eh? Been there, done it, t shirt etc. Same for Japanese imports and British classics.

    Don't currently have a car and if I did, it'd be a van. For the bikes.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Sports cars, eh? Been there, done it, t shirt etc. Same for Japanese imports and British classics.

    Don't currently have a car and if I did, it'd be a van. For the bikes.

    exactly - loads of things = fun at the time ... different priorities, different things fun now ....

    car/van for me now is transport, it can be transport to some nice places or via nice places - but it's still transport.
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    Slowbike wrote:
    I know fast drivers are annoying - and quite often dangerous - but driving can be fun, and it can be safe whilst still being fast.
    I do feel sorry for the kids who will grow up into the only option of self driving cars as that element of fun will be removed.

    We seem to prescribe safety to the lowest common denominator at the drop of a hat - affecting everybody, safe driver or not. It seems we don't like others having "fun" even if they're not affecting anyone else. It's not helped by people blaming everyone else for their own mistakes.

    I see your point but how do you decide who is allowed to have fun and who is not? and how do you now if they are not affecting anyone else or just haven't yet?

    I'm sure the vast majority of drink drivers get home safely, to use a slightly extreme example, so you could say similar things about how much you can drink and be "safe" to drive.
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    I had a Honda Civic Type R as a company car once. Wasted on me.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,808
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    I used to do a lot of trackdays - great fun and good for letting off some steam from a driving point of view, but the time investment got harder and harder with work, family, parents etc. And the cost was pretty eye watering even without tracking anything exotic: me and a mate reckoned it was about £700 per track day all in.

    For some reason go-karting never really did it for me like car trackdays and most circuits seemed to be miles away. So the time factor came into it again.

    Caterhams - nice once you're at the track but the idea of driving in one for several hours to get there on a cold wet day was not great unless you then started investing in vans and trailers etc. Time factor as above. Maybe something for retirement when I can pick a nice sunny day or whatever.

    Part of the fun of a good road car is that you can have a spot of fun while you're doing something useful or needed like getting somewhere (a bit like commuting to work on your bike); you just have to choose your time/spot and be sensible about it. Obviously if you're driving in cities/towns all the time then there's not much opportunity.

    Didn't think you were into motorsport.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,710
    Who was that ex BR poster who supposedly drove all those fancy cars? He'd be at home here...
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,710
    VTech!
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Save the money and go go-karting regularly, no?

    Or, spend the £30k on a caterham or something and go race those.

    Love racing, love speed but I've never really seen a road car as anything other than transport; way too much traffic to be worrying about how fast you can take a corner.
    I used to do a lot of trackdays - great fun and good for letting off some steam from a driving point of view, but the time investment got harder and harder with work, family, parents etc. And the cost was pretty eye watering even without tracking anything exotic: me and a mate reckoned it was about £700 per track day all in.

    For some reason go-karting never really did it for me like car trackdays and most circuits seemed to be miles away. So the time factor came into it again.

    Caterhams - nice once you're at the track but the idea of driving in one for several hours to get there on a cold wet day was not great unless you then started investing in vans and trailers etc. Time factor as above. Maybe something for retirement when I can pick a nice sunny day or whatever.

    Part of the fun of a good road car is that you can have a spot of fun while you're doing something useful or needed like getting somewhere (a bit like commuting to work on your bike); you just have to choose your time/spot and be sensible about it. Obviously if you're driving in cities/towns all the time then there's not much opportunity.

    Didn't think you were into motorsport.

    I love pretty much all racing (except for horses) and was a massive F1 nerd as a kid.

    I just can’t get excited about road cars as my 0.95 VW polo will testify to.

    I like go karting a lot but I would since being under 60 kilos is always a massive advantage for those really underpowered karts.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    If they bring in controls on cars to limit speed then I hope they bring in self driving. As I get older I don't mind driving slowly but would rather the car did it for me. Particularly for motorways
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    If they bring in controls on cars to limit speed then I hope they bring in self driving. As I get older if I am forced to drive slowly then i would rather the car did it for me. Particularly for motorways

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