Discrimination Against Car Drivers

Wayne Plunger
Wayne Plunger Posts: 444
edited April 2019 in The cake stop
Have pondered this for a while. Today the police camera van was in his usual place on the 30 zone with the rear of the van facing the oncoming obviously photographing those over the speed limit.

Then along comes a motorbike fully 60/70 miles an hour but of course he has no front number plate so can get away with it.

I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.
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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,530
    Not gonna get much sympathy here.
  • sam_anon
    sam_anon Posts: 153
    Think of it as payback for getting wet and cold!
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,399
    Have pondered this for a while. Today the police camera van was in his usual place on the 30 zone with the rear of the van facing the oncoming obviously photographing those over the speed limit.

    Then along comes a motorbike fully 60/70 miles an hour but of course he has no front number plate so can get away with it.

    I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.
    Would this camera van be positioned on a relatively straight and safe stretch of road?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • amrushton
    amrushton Posts: 1,253
    Yet there seems to be a proliferation of cars out there that have no front number plate (or it's on the ledge behind the windscreen) or have the greyed out plates. the Police may be looking for untaxed vehicles.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,399
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,530
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Meh. They get off with murder all the time. Don't feel too sorry for them.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Was on a road which had 50% of accidents involving motorbikes. Problem is becoming less there.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Motorbikers generally kill themselves through risk taking or are killed by other road users. They tend not to inflict damage to vulnerable road users and certainly do not have the kill statistics as cars for example. It is therefore logical that the police should tackle car drivers more aggressively than others as they are doing most of the killing. Police and society take a dim view of killing others however are generally more accepting of those who wish to partake in risk taking where their own is the only life in the balance.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    You've never cycled popular biker routes much I take it. Try Devil's Bridge past Bardon and you'll know what I mean. Or one of the routes from the m6 to there either side of the TT week. Risk taking is very bad. But the blame on deaths is effectively being put on 4 wheeled vehicles judging by all the "think bike" signs around the area. It's not car drivers who need to think IMHO.

    On another related matter, do you think a car driver is going to carry on as normal after getting a risk taking motorcyclist through their windscreen? It's more than the biker that gets affected by the lunacy of these risk taking bikers.

    Having said that you're right about the statistics being worse for 4 wheeled vehicles (which probably do more miles and are greater in number which may skew figures possibly). However if there's enforcement for one type of vehicle there's no reason for enforcement to include bikes since it's cost effective to catch both of speeding or without whatever taxes they need to pay. Especially if the actions taken are the same at the same time.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Have pondered this for a while. Today the police camera van was in his usual place on the 30 zone with the rear of the van facing the oncoming obviously photographing those over the speed limit.

    Then along comes a motorbike fully 60/70 miles an hour but of course he has no front number plate so can get away with it.

    I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.

    I have never witnessed a m/bike doing that on the stretch here that they monitor. It would be lunacy and someone would die for sure. Cars do speed at 40 to 50 and the problem is the road can't sustain traffic at that speed because people entering from side roads or simply trying to cross on foot could not do it - they would hardly have any opportunity.

    Speed is about safety but it is also about traffic flows.

    Mr Bonnington Jagworth might see a perfectly straight stretch of road and think any speed is fine but in fact straight roads are often most dangerous because people do not judge oncoming vehicle speeds at all well. Nor do they factor in the unforeseeable event.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Robert88 wrote:
    Have pondered this for a while. Today the police camera van was in his usual place on the 30 zone with the rear of the van facing the oncoming obviously photographing those over the speed limit.

    Then along comes a motorbike fully 60/70 miles an hour but of course he has no front number plate so can get away with it.

    I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.

    I have never witnessed a m/bike doing that on the stretch here that they monitor. It would be lunacy and someone would die for sure. Cars do speed at 40 to 50 and the problem is the road can't sustain traffic at that speed because people entering from side roads or simply trying to cross on foot could not do it - they would hardly have any opportunity.

    Speed is about safety but it is also about traffic flows.

    Mr Bonnington Jagworth might see a perfectly straight stretch of road and think any speed is fine but in fact straight roads are often most dangerous because people do not judge oncoming vehicle speeds at all well. Nor do they factor in the unforeseeable event.

    There is a POV cam of a motorcyclist going 100mph into the side of a car in exactly the situation you describe. You can hear the rider shouting "NOOO" as he sees the car pull out and knows he's going to die. Sadly the young rider was killed and his parents said they want the video to remain public to be a reminder to motorcyclists to be more careful.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,206
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Why is that relevant to whether numberplate recognition prevents speeding?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,399
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
    That's another good thing about buying mine recently :) - it seems that from 2022 there will be some electronic nanny in all new cars. I tend to keep my cars a long time as well.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,399
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Why is that relevant to whether numberplate recognition prevents speeding?
    It's the overall road safety point - speeding is clearly not the only factor in play.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Cyclists too don't have number plates. Just saying. They get away with things too. Surprised you haven't raised that. Of course if numberplates and enforcement work you'd see less speeding motor vehicles surely?
    Also relevant is whether you think that exceeding the speed limit is the only problem on the roads.

    Soon your car will be limited by GPS mate so don’t worry ;)
    That's another good thing about buying mine recently :) - it seems that from 2022 there will be some electronic nanny in all new cars. I tend to keep my cars a long time as well.

    So you can drive your car like a cock with impunity? Surely you're on the wrong forum. I never understand why people complain about measures being taken to prevent people breaking the law. Speed cameras, speed limiters, whatever, they are only preventing people doing something illegal and antisocial. I suppose any measure that discriminates against one group is potentially unfair (think stop and search) and maybefront number plate recognition falls into that category if nothing is being done to target motorbikes, but surely the answer is to do something to target them as well, rather than to stop targetting cars?
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,503
    How would it get a speeding fine overturned?
    The fact that someone else was speeding and didn't get caught is hardly an excuse or all speeding fines would be unenforceable.

    Assuming the copper isn't welded to his seat in the van, he could always just turn around and get the number plate after the bike has passed, in fact I'm sure I have heard of that happening.
    I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    BigMat wrote:
    So you can drive your car like a fool with impunity? Surely you're on the wrong forum. I never understand why people complain about measures being taken to prevent people breaking the law. Speed cameras, speed limiters, whatever, they are only preventing people doing something illegal and antisocial. I suppose any measure that discriminates against one group is potentially unfair (think stop and search) and maybefront number plate recognition falls into that category if nothing is being done to target motorbikes, but surely the answer is to do something to target them as well, rather than to stop targetting cars?
    The issue is more that the speed limits are a hard limit, not always dependent on location and do not take into account the conditions or time of day.

    There's a B road near me that has recently gone from delimit to 40mph. I've been traveling that road for a good few years and during busy commute times you generally don't get above 40mph anyway. Outside those times, for a good proportion of the road, it's safe to run up to 50mph and beyond. Providing you drive considerately, the 40mph hard limit is (IMHO) inappropriate.
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,503
    What's the other option though, install electronic variable speed limit signs with traffic and weather sensors?
  • figbat
    figbat Posts: 680
    monkimark wrote:
    How would it get a speeding fine overturned?
    The fact that someone else was speeding and didn't get caught is hardly an excuse or all speeding fines would be unenforceable.

    Assuming the copper isn't welded to his seat in the van, he could always just turn around and get the number plate after the bike has passed, in fact I'm sure I have heard of that happening.
    I am surprised no "car driver action group" has never raised this with a view to getting fines overturned.

    This.

    They can still clock your speed with the radar/laser device then get a record of your number plate as you pass.

    And the “it’s not fair” defence doesn’t even work in my house, let alone in a court.
    Cube Reaction GTC Pro 29 for the lumpy stuff
    Cannondale Synapse alloy with 'guards for the winter roads
    Fuji Altamira 2.7 for the summer roads
    Trek 830 Mountain Track frame turned into a gravel bike - for anywhere & everywhere
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    monkimark wrote:
    What's the other option though, install electronic variable speed limit signs with traffic and weather sensors?
    unfortunately it seems we can't expect drivers to driving at a sensible speed - too many have to drive AT the speed limit regardless
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Is it better to set the speed limit at the level you can do when the conditions are good or pick a more average level. So if you can end up doing only 30 or up to 50mph then setting the limit at 40mph is sensible surely? Or do we set it at the slowest speed for safety reasons with the acceptance that more drivers will see it as too slow and speed? The last option brings more drivers into the speeding camp I reckon.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,530
    Slowbike wrote:
    There's a B road near me that has recently gone from delimit to 40mph. I've been traveling that road for a good few years and during busy commute times you generally don't get above 40mph anyway. Outside those times, for a good proportion of the road, it's safe to run up to 50mph and beyond. Providing you drive considerately, the 40mph hard limit is (IMHO) inappropriate.

    May not be applicable in this instance, but there is good mathematical reason behind the principle that reducing speed limits can, if done correctly, actually improve traffic flow; I think it's something to do with smaller discrepancy in speeds reduces drivers overcompensating in speed and distance between other cars.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    The silly thing is - there's another, smaller road that mostly runs parallel which is still delimited for the most part.
    It's width restricted - although the supermarket and home store delivery lorries seem to ignore that - except for access is supposed to mean that you can go through the width restriction IF you have business within the restricted area - not if you're just using it as a shortcut ...
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Slowbike wrote:
    There's a B road near me that has recently gone from delimit to 40mph. I've been traveling that road for a good few years and during busy commute times you generally don't get above 40mph anyway. Outside those times, for a good proportion of the road, it's safe to run up to 50mph and beyond. Providing you drive considerately, the 40mph hard limit is (IMHO) inappropriate.

    May not be applicable in this instance, but there is good mathematical reason behind the principle that reducing speed limits can, if done correctly, actually improve traffic flow; I think it's something to do with smaller discrepancy in speeds reduces drivers overcompensating in speed and distance between other cars.

    It stops the accordion affect. Hence smart motorways. Apparently, on average, by following the speeds limits provided, traffic moves about 10mph faster than if there were no limits.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Slowbike wrote:
    There's a B road near me that has recently gone from delimit to 40mph. I've been traveling that road for a good few years and during busy commute times you generally don't get above 40mph anyway. Outside those times, for a good proportion of the road, it's safe to run up to 50mph and beyond. Providing you drive considerately, the 40mph hard limit is (IMHO) inappropriate.

    May not be applicable in this instance, but there is good mathematical reason behind the principle that reducing speed limits can, if done correctly, actually improve traffic flow; I think it's something to do with smaller discrepancy in speeds reduces drivers overcompensating in speed and distance between other cars.
    That's fine for the busy periods and in built up areas where you get a higher traffic density - applying it to roads that are only busy twice a day 5 days a week encourages drivers to exceed the limit at other times.

    I used to commute that road - we had the 40mphers - who did the whole stretch at 40mph - through the villages (30mph) and the open stretch (delimited) - it was pretty much constant steady traffic at or around 40mph. It hasn't changed much.

    The whole area around us has seen reduced speed limits introduced over the years - speed limits are a bit of a blunt tool.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    You've never cycled popular biker routes much I take it. Try Devil's Bridge past Bardon and you'll know what I mean. Or one of the routes from the m6 to there either side of the TT week. Risk taking is very bad. But the blame on deaths is effectively being put on 4 wheeled vehicles judging by all the "think bike" signs around the area. It's not car drivers who need to think IMHO.

    On another related matter, do you think a car driver is going to carry on as normal after getting a risk taking motorcyclist through their windscreen? It's more than the biker that gets affected by the lunacy of these risk taking bikers.

    Having said that you're right about the statistics being worse for 4 wheeled vehicles (which probably do more miles and are greater in number which may skew figures possibly). However if there's enforcement for one type of vehicle there's no reason for enforcement to include bikes since it's cost effective to catch both of speeding or without whatever taxes they need to pay. Especially if the actions taken are the same at the same time.

    Bikers are the highest danger group per km travelled by some margin. Your argument above is an emotional response for a very rare event. I am more likely to have a motorbike through my car windscreen from my fault than the bikers fault looking at the statistical evidence. This is not to say that it is never the bikers fault but it is similar to the old cyclists need insurance and license plates because a very small number of pedestrians are killed by cyclists. This is merely a distraction attempt by the worst offenders i.e. the car driver.

    When I am cycling and come across motorbikers there are two types. The first type ride to what they can see and therefore pass me courteously and there are those that don't ride to what they can see and therefore come across me in surprise and are seen as inconsiderate. The evidence would suggest that the later group are likely to take themselves out the gene pool pretty quickly. Whilst I could focus my road safety agenda on motor bikers I am better served dealing with the many car drivers that do inflict a large number of casualties on either their own occupants or vulnerable road users such as cyclists as this will get me the biggest result for my efforts looking at the statistics.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    john80 wrote:
    ... a very rare event...
    ...The evidence would suggest that the later group are likely to take themselves out the gene pool pretty quickly...
    Well, which one is it?

    I for one am amazed how many careless car drivers there must be on those bank holiday special routes that bikers take themselves out on so frequently.

    Personally I would limit motorbikes a long time before cars, just on the grounds of noise - my home has a delightful rural setting that I'm very thankful for, about the only thing that spoils the tranquility is the sound of the donors heading off up the Braemar road, two miles away and over a hill.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,441
    The problem with many speed limits is that they have been amended over the years without any alterations to the road itself including the road markings and signage. Although most drivers won't realise it, lane markings on roads over 40mph are larger than on those below and signs get bigger with the speed of road so if a speed limit has been reduced over the years (as is common where a main A road travels through a small village) but the original signs and markings remain it makes it less likely that drivers will slow down as sub-consciously it feels like a higher speed road.

    Generally, if you want to alter a speed limit these days then in order to get police support you need to demonstrate that measures will be put in place so that the limit becomes self-enforcing.