Does it bother you that we are mostly hated?

cowboyjon

In regards to the original question, why are you even trying to talk to workmates about a subject which clearly they are not in the slightest bit interested in?

Your in a no-win situation before you even start but a lifetime of social interactions should really have taught you this lesson by now.

tangled_metal

Are cyclists hated? Not realised that before. Never noticed an issue with hate. A few petrolheads spout a bit on their sites all brave behind a keyboard. The JC from top gear attitude but he's doing it as an act. We do have a guy at work who got fined as a teenager when he pushed the lead cyclist of a chaingang over and took out about 20 cyclists. But his "hate" is his form of banter. He does it with everyone. Actually a nice guy under this banter. Not condoning it but I can ignore it.

About vegans. I don't think people hate them only the radical vegans. Just found a teacher on Facebook who has put up a searchable map of dairy farmers on his Facebook page to make it easier for activists to target. As you'll guess there's some very strong language coming out of the comments from supporters and those against the more extremist vegans.

I think people can distinguish the problem elements of a particular, problem sub-group of our population from those quietly getting on with their life.

joenobody

Tangled Metal wrote:

About vegans. I don't think people hate them only the radical vegans..

As a vegan I think I can say that you'd be genuinely surprised just how strong some people's opinions are against all vegans. To some we're all radical, regardless of evidence (or lack of it), who are trying to use force to remove animal based products from their meals, their homes and their lives.

hopkinb

JoeNobody wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

About vegans. I don't think people hate them only the radical vegans..

As a vegan I think I can say that you'd be genuinely surprised just how strong some people's opinions are against all vegans. To some we're all radical, regardless of evidence (or lack of it), who are trying to use force to remove animal based products from their meals, their homes and their lives.

I honestly don't understand why someone cares what you eat?! Expecially as it's basically plants.

I eat vegan food all the time, as do all omnivores. Bread in all its forms, olive oil, other vegetable based oils, oats & other cereals, beans, lentils & other pulses, soya protein products (tofu specifically in my case), nuts, mushrooms, vegetables, fruit (fresh and dried), sugar, salt, herbs, a whole world of spices. I could live off that, as could everyone, as will everyone at some point in the not too distant future I reckon given the pressure on scarce resources. Hopefully I've not included anything that's not vegan, but that is a pretty varied & balanced diet.

I'd be "happier" as a traditional vegetarian, adding dairy and eggs to that lot.

Cheeseface22

I think if someone is more “health” conscience in what s/he/it/they (non-binary person, you know) eats then their choice of food would naturally gravitate towards what a vegan may decide to eat. Then there’s the environmental argument of being vegan, which is currently very mixed and unclear in terms of evidence in comparison to meat eating. And that opens up a rather more passionate people to turn into “militants” and “evangelists” to press their way of life to others, and the antis to hate the whole vegan population, as the current evidence can’t clearly demonstrate which side is correct, at least in terms of environmental impact. I'm against militants of any sort. But I'm not against the idea of vegan diet.

Then there’s “cyclists.” Again, the laws and permitted actions whilst cycling on the road is currently very unclear. There are “should” and “musts” described in the Highway Code, but it’s just not as detailed, adequate and applicable enough to current condition of highway traffic as opposed to driving a motorised vehicle. And that opens up the whole host of opinionated and offensive attitude for and against cycling on the road (just like the situation with “veganism”).

Cycle lanes for example, HC (rule 63) describes that “use of cycle lanes is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer.” What exactly does that mean? It’s not clear: yes use it because it’s “safer” (is it though?!), but not enforceable (that’s where ignorant drivers get it wrong) and you don’t really have to (so why build a shoddy lane?)?! The actual cycle lanes I encounter, and recognised by Sustrans, are completely inappropriate but the signs for them are very visible to other road users. Drivers think “bloody cyclists not using their own designated lane. What a waste of tax money, slowing us down, irritating our eyes with their hi-vis and flashing lights.”

tangled_metal

JoeNobody wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

About vegans. I don't think people hate them only the radical vegans..

As a vegan I think I can say that you'd be genuinely surprised just how strong some people's opinions are against all vegans. To some we're all radical, regardless of evidence (or lack of it), who are trying to use force to remove animal based products from their meals, their homes and their lives.

Just how do people know you're a vegan? Cyclists are out there on a bike. Vegans don't show they're vegans in that way. Mostly the only easy you'd find out is socially or through work. Chances are you'll not find it an issue when you do find out someone you know is vegan.

IME the vegans I have known about have all been actively promoting veganism and have been active in anti-meat campaigning. Which is probably why they got grief. I find people who try and push their views on you tend to find people push back.

joenobody

hopkinb wrote:

I honestly don't understand why someone cares what you eat?! Expecially as it's basically plants.

Same, but it happens. Sometimes it's militant vegans, but mostly it seems to be militant non-vegans (or maybe that's my echo chamber...)

hopkinb

Tangled Metal wrote:

IME the vegans I have known about have all been actively promoting veganism and have been active in anti-meat campaigning. Which is probably why they got grief. I find people who try and push their views on you tend to find people push back.

My experience is the polar opposite.

Except for the fruitarian I knew. He wouldn't stop banging on about it. :shock:

joenobody

Tangled Metal wrote:

Just how do people know you're a vegan? Cyclists are out there on a bike. Vegans don't show they're vegans in that way. Mostly the only easy you'd find out is socially or through work. Chances are you'll not find it an issue when you do find out someone you know is vegan.

IME the vegans I have known about have all been actively promoting veganism and have been active in anti-meat campaigning. Which is probably why they got grief. I find people who try and push their views on you tend to find people push back.

Sometimes it's not aimed at a specific vegan, but at vegans generally. Just look at the comments on news about vegan-related news stories (e.g. the recent Greggs vegan sausage roll story). It's very common to see people shouting "DON"T FORCE YOUR VIEWS ON ME" or "LEAVE MY FOOD ALONE", or some other such spurious remark, as if the mere existence of vegan products is a threat to their way of life (I'd guess mostly Brexiters or Republicans, but that's my prejudice ). Mostly, in my close personal experience, people are interested and I try to explain why I made the decision to go vegan without aggression or judgement. I know there are a few vegans that are militant, and won't take this approach, but it's not my style.

Otherwise, to the question "how do people know", have you ever deliberately tried to avoid talking about food in general conversation? It's so central to our culture (humans generally, not just Brits or westerners) that it's almost impossible to completely avoid getting in to situations where it's necessary to mention it. It's getting easier now there are more vegan options available in restaurants and other food retail outlets, but it's still often necessary to mention it when it ought not be necessary. And, in some situations, you then get the "where do you get your protein from?", "what do you eat then?" or "don't you miss bacon?" type of questions.

I'd suggest there maybe an element of hanging on to a justified stereotype based on vegans from years ago who where probably more vocal. Now it's more mainstream these people are an ever shrinking minority in the vegan community, but people seem not to have noticed. Probably similar to law-breaking cyclists...

But, this is going of topic a bit. I think, regardless of what the subject might be, some people just anger too easily, don't like anything that doesn't fit in with the way they live their lives, and feel that the world owes them something in terms of not bursting their cosy bubble. There's a body of thought that suggests this is down to a subconscious element of self-hatred (or maybe just underachievement).

neeb

Cheeseface22 wrote:

Then there’s the environmental argument of being vegan, which is currently very mixed and unclear in terms of evidence in comparison to meat eating. ”

It's really not mixed and unclear at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... t-on-earth

There are a few tiny peripheral issues that get bandied about by those with vested interests to try to discredit or distract from this (e.g. that there are some areas that are not argriculturally productive that can nonetheless be exploited by ruminants for meat production (although often at great cost to biodiversity)), but this is like arguing against encouraging people to excercise more on the basis that some people have rare heart disorders..

I'm not vegan myself but I accept that I should be (although I've been vegetarian with occasional fish for over 30 years).

As has been pointed out the vast majority of vegans just get on with it and aren't vocal or militant in the slightest, but they have a perfect right to be. Just as cyclists should feel justified in politely advocating for sustainable transport.

People get most upset about having other people's views "forced down their throats" when they know that these views are fundamentally correct and that their own position is unsupportable. People in the UK especially (and dare I say England outside of London, Manchester, Bristol etc especially) don't like being told what to do or told they are wrong when they know that they are. That's why we have Brexit. It's like a type of arrested personal development on a societal level.

ballysmate

Not in the slightest.
I even hate myself.

tangled_metal

What is it about city dwelling that makes them less likely to dislike being told they're wrong? That's sounds like you've taken those areas that voted remain in higher rates and extrapolated that they are more open to the right answers of various matters. Interesting opinion but any evidence?

One thing I wonder about these studies is how they discuss carbon emissions and various factors but do they make any comment about the impact of the chemicals and the impact of gm foods? I'm still sure the arguments stand but they never report anything about the current agricultural tendencies for intensive farming of a non-meat variety. Can we grow enough without intensive farming and its harmful practises?

neeb

Tangled Metal wrote:

What is it about city dwelling that makes them less likely to dislike being told they're wrong? That's sounds like you've taken those areas that voted remain in higher rates and extrapolated that they are more open to the right answers of various matters. Interesting opinion but any evidence?

Well, it's not as simple as city vs. rural/small town, there are doubtless wider historcial and cultural factors at play too, but cities tend to put lots of different people from diverse backgrounds together in close proximity. There's much greater cultural turnover and diversity, views are regularly challenged, people have to find ways to work together and create cultural synergies. Cities also tend to be where art, higher education and politics are centred (i.e. they are "elitist" if you're the kind of person that thinks all of that kind of stuff is a load of nonsense).

As far as the Brexit thing goes, it's well known that the biggest single demographic predicting how people voted was education level. So while it's true that people from poorer areas, older people, people in non-professional jobs etc were more likely to vote leave, none of these things were as significant as education. So if you were a penniless 70 year old working class retired shelf-stacker from Rotherham with a post graduate degree it would be the latter factor that would have had the biggest influence on which way you voted.

Tangled Metal wrote:

One thing I wonder about these studies is how they discuss carbon emissions and various factors but do they make any comment about the impact of the chemicals and the impact of gm foods? I'm still sure the arguments stand but they never report anything about the current agricultural tendencies for intensive farming of a non-meat variety. Can we grow enough without intensive farming and its harmful practises?

All food (well, effectively all of it) comes from plants, and an increasingly large proportion of it from intensive farming. The difference is that with meat, you feed the crops you produce to animals, who turn some of the energy and material from it into meat, but waste most of it by walking around, mooing, breathing out CO2, farting methane and generally living... It's vastly less efficient to grow crops to feed to animals to eat the animals than it is to just eat the crops in the first place. So the less meat we eat the less land we need to feed ourselves (by a fairly vast amount), and the more options we have when it comes to choosing how we grow crops and how intensive our farming is. GM is just a tool, it's not harmful or benign in itself, it depends on the application. Eating GM food is highly unlikely to do you any harm just because the crop has been genetically modified. What will harm you is eating non-nutritious food that has been produced with or without the help of GM, or perhaps food that's heavily contaminated with pesticides. One of the most intensively farmed crops that is most responsible for destruction of natural habitats etc is soya - but only a tiny proportion of that ends up as tofu or other food consumed directly by humans, nearly all of it is grown to be fed to livestock to produce beefburgers..

sgt.pepper

We need a new version of Godwin's law, except that now everything ends up about Brexit.

bongofish

This thread has gone in such a weird direction

neeb

Although no one has collected data on it, I’d bet anything that if you took the group of people who professed to hate cyclists and/or had been aggressive towards cyclists on the road they would be statistically more likely to be brexit supporters than a randomly selected control group..

StillGoing

neeb wrote:

Cheeseface22 wrote:

Then there’s the environmental argument of being vegan, which is currently very mixed and unclear in terms of evidence in comparison to meat eating. ”

It's really not mixed and unclear at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... t-on-earth

I'm not vegan myself but I accept that I should be (although I've been vegetarian with occasional fish for over 30 years).

As has been pointed out the vast majority of vegans just get on with it and aren't vocal or militant in the slightest, but they have a perfect right to be. Just as cyclists should feel justified in politely advocating for sustainable transport.

People get most upset about having other people's views "forced down their throats" when they know that these views are fundamentally correct and that their own position is unsupportable. People in the UK especially (and dare I say England outside of London, Manchester, Bristol etc especially) don't like being told what to do or told they are wrong when they know that they are. That's why we have Brexit. It's like a type of arrested personal development on a societal level.

Complete Bollox and a typical tree hugging sandal wearing Remainer.

StillGoing

neeb wrote:

Although no one has collected data on it, I’d bet anything that if you took the group of people who professed to hate cyclists and/or had been aggressive towards cyclists on the road they would be statistically more likely to be brexit supporters than a randomly selected control group..

You really are fecking bonkers :roll:

neeb

Oops, touched a nerve there!

Cheeseface22

neeb wrote:

Cheeseface22 wrote:

Then there’s the environmental argument of being vegan, which is currently very mixed and unclear in terms of evidence in comparison to meat eating. ”

It's really not mixed and unclear at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... t-on-earth

Prime example.

Neeb, have you actually went to the source (the evidence), or are you just taking Chinese wisper version of how Guardian interprets the source?

Exactly my point.

I won't start potential tennis comments so you don't need to reply with your response.

neeb

Cheeseface22 wrote:

neeb wrote:

Cheeseface22 wrote:

Then there’s the environmental argument of being vegan, which is currently very mixed and unclear in terms of evidence in comparison to meat eating. ”

It's really not mixed and unclear at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... t-on-earth

Prime example.

Neeb, have you actually went to the source (the evidence), or are you just taking Chinese wisper version of how Guardian interprets the source?

Exactly my point.

I won't start potential tennis comments so you don't need to reply with your response.

Yes, I have - not just the particular paper that the Guardian article was prompted by, but others written prior to that. But the Guardian article provides a good summary for a general audience. Ironically I did actually almost post a link to the Science journal article instead - do you think that would have been better..?

ballysmate

It would help the vegan cause if meat didn't taste so damn good.

tootsie323

The vast majority of people, whether driving, cycling, riding a horse, eating only non-animal-produced food, being a carnivore, are perfectly content to get on with their lives and let other get on with their own. These people don't make headlines. As an aside, one does not hear the news start with: An aircraft landed safely after a scheduled flight at so-and-so airport, effectively maintaining the lives of all 400-or-so people on board...

It's a minority. They make the most noise, whether it's self-entitlement in terms of road usage or in what you choose to eat. Oh - and sometimes mistakes genuinely happen.

keef66

Tangled Metal wrote:

One thing I wonder about these studies is how they discuss carbon emissions and various factors but do they make any comment about the impact of the chemicals and the impact of gm foods?

What kind of impact are you expecting from GM? As far as I'm aware it's been safely consumed by billions of animals and people over many years without incident.

Tangled Metal wrote:

I'm still sure the arguments stand but they never report anything about the current agricultural tendencies for intensive farming of a non-meat variety. Can we grow enough without intensive farming and its harmful practises?

No we can't.

Ben6899

Anyone who's threatened by someone's dietary choices is a proper fuck1ng snowflake.

neeb

Ben6899 wrote:

Anyone who's threatened by someone's dietary choices is a proper fuck1ng snowflake.

Unless perhaps the choice is cannibalism, they're bigger than you and they have a machete..

pastryboy

Get your 'FUCK VEGANS' and 'FUCK CYCLISTS' here:

https://www.isaacbutterfield.com/store/fuckcyclists

Don't expect to find any stickers for other groups on there - just cyclists and vegans.

He's a youtube comedian and appears to be going after the low-hanging fruit. His comments section is an unsuprisingly grim place.

Matthewfalle

Ballysmate wrote:

It would help the vegan cause if meat didn't taste so damn good.

if vegetarianism and beibg vegan is so great, why do they always name their food after meat?

veggie steaks
vegan burgers
xyz product tastes as good as meat
veggie bacon

#crispybacon

neeb

Matthewfalle wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

It would help the vegan cause if meat didn't taste so damn good.

if vegetarianism and beibg vegan is so great, why do they always name their food after meat?

veggie steaks
vegan burgers
xyz product tastes as good as meat
veggie bacon

They don't, that's just the supermarkets trying to sell to two markets at the same time, veggies and non-veggies who are looking for "healthier choices" (of course the stuff marketed as burgers/steaks etc is likely to be the most processed and least healthy).

Often smaller branches of Sainsburys etc. will have a sizeable range of veggie sliced ham, veggie sausages etc (often based on quorn or highly processed soya) but won't stock tofu. I guess they must just make more money from selling cheaper processed veggie food to non-veggies (and veggies who can't find anything half decent on the shelves) than quality plant based foods to people who want them.

One of the most annoying things about being vegetarian or vegan is that the rest of society (in the UK at least) is still stuck in a permanent "meat and two veg" mindset when it comes to how they think about food. If you approach veggie food that way then it's always going to seem less appetising - keeping the same structure of the meal but just substituting the lump of meat for a lump of something non-meat. Good vegetarian meals are structured differently. That said, there are plenty meal types that work equally well from a vegetarian or meat based perspective - pasta, pizza, curry etc. Indian and Italian are the go-to choices if you are vegetarian and needing fast food, or a restaurant choice that will work equally well for meat eating companions. Much, much more difficult if you are vegan of course.

lakesluddite

I think that all the people who are bothered that cyclists are hated (by a few morons) don't cycle primarily because of that. Look at the recent reports of the gender imbalance in cycling - the perceived danger from other road users tends to be the issue of why women cycle much less than men. It can be an intimidating pastime at times.