LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
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I don't think we'll do either. It's just curious that the treaty being talked about for withdrawal isn't the one that would make a material difference to what the government calls "illegal migration". I guess one applies the old adage: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."rjsterry said:
We're not going to do either. It's just a thing that is said to get people on side. Much like the barge and Rwanda it's all a performance.wallace_and_gromit said:
I don't think this gets enough coverage. Withdrawing from the ECHR would allow a few more deportations and a handful of transfers to Rwanda, but it wouldn't remove the UK's obligation to take in those who report in the required fashion who have a valid claim. So one wonders if those agitating for withdrawing from the ECHR are thick or have ulterior motives unrelated to immigration.rjsterry said:Anyway, good luck with your campaign to withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention 🙂
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Depends on where you are. I was there for 5 years split between Montreal, Quebec and Calgary during which I never owned a car. Plenty of snow, but skiing though...TheBigBean said:
A very British move that. I've done my Canadian time and would struggle with the car centric and dull layout of towns. Victoria is obviously a bit different though.rjsterry said:
Suburbs of Victoria. It's not cheap, certainly.First.Aspect said:
Depending where he is, living costs are astronomical over there. And if they aren't ypu will spend a lot of time waiting to get over a bridge, one way or another.rjsterry said:
Brother emigrated to Canada (BC). Has since contracted for his former UK employer from Canada. Extra cost for them (they couldn't find someone local) and less tax for the UK. Now working for Canadian government.TheBigBean said:
Which paradise land should we all go it?briantrumpet said:Is this what was supposed to happen?
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
His wife is Canadian.TheBigBean said:
A very British move that. I've done my Canadian time and would struggle with the car centric and dull layout of towns. Victoria is obviously a bit different though.rjsterry said:
Suburbs of Victoria. It's not cheap, certainly.First.Aspect said:
Depending where he is, living costs are astronomical over there. And if they aren't ypu will spend a lot of time waiting to get over a bridge, one way or another.rjsterry said:
Brother emigrated to Canada (BC). Has since contracted for his former UK employer from Canada. Extra cost for them (they couldn't find someone local) and less tax for the UK. Now working for Canadian government.TheBigBean said:
Which paradise land should we all go it?briantrumpet said:Is this what was supposed to happen?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Victoria is the perfect compromise then.rjsterry said:
His wife is Canadian.TheBigBean said:
A very British move that. I've done my Canadian time and would struggle with the car centric and dull layout of towns. Victoria is obviously a bit different though.rjsterry said:
Suburbs of Victoria. It's not cheap, certainly.First.Aspect said:
Depending where he is, living costs are astronomical over there. And if they aren't ypu will spend a lot of time waiting to get over a bridge, one way or another.rjsterry said:
Brother emigrated to Canada (BC). Has since contracted for his former UK employer from Canada. Extra cost for them (they couldn't find someone local) and less tax for the UK. Now working for Canadian government.TheBigBean said:
Which paradise land should we all go it?briantrumpet said:Is this what was supposed to happen?
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Hopefully not off the beaches of Kent. Better if we can choose people to come in who are likely to contribute rather than hose who are likely to be a liability.First.Aspect said:
Ah, you listen to Radio 4 I see.TheBigBean said:Korean women give birth to 0.78 children on average. Life expectancy of Korean women is 87 years.
Not just the UK with problems on that front.
Don't they have a projection of something like 17 people in three generations time for every 100 in the generation?
Whereas ours is more like 60.
Where are the extra 40 people going to come from Stevo? Or is the plan to double productivity somehow?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Anyhow, maybe we should look more closely at the Australian experience with curtailing small boat immigration as they seem to have got results:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/they-said-i-couldnt-stop-the-boats-they-were-wrong/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Don't think he considers it much of a compromise.TheBigBean said:
Victoria is the perfect compromise then.rjsterry said:
His wife is Canadian.TheBigBean said:
A very British move that. I've done my Canadian time and would struggle with the car centric and dull layout of towns. Victoria is obviously a bit different though.rjsterry said:
Suburbs of Victoria. It's not cheap, certainly.First.Aspect said:
Depending where he is, living costs are astronomical over there. And if they aren't ypu will spend a lot of time waiting to get over a bridge, one way or another.rjsterry said:
Brother emigrated to Canada (BC). Has since contracted for his former UK employer from Canada. Extra cost for them (they couldn't find someone local) and less tax for the UK. Now working for Canadian government.TheBigBean said:
Which paradise land should we all go it?briantrumpet said:Is this what was supposed to happen?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'm amazed you think stopping boats is actually the goal.Stevo_666 said:Anyhow, maybe we should look more closely at the Australian experience with curtailing small boat immigration as they seem to have got results:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/they-said-i-couldnt-stop-the-boats-they-were-wrong/1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You didn't answer why you think someone claiming asylum is likely to be a liability. Also a bit weird seeing as you offered a room to a refugee.Stevo_666 said:
Hopefully not off the beaches of Kent. Better if we can choose people to come in who are likely to contribute rather than hose who are likely to be a liability.First.Aspect said:
Ah, you listen to Radio 4 I see.TheBigBean said:Korean women give birth to 0.78 children on average. Life expectancy of Korean women is 87 years.
Not just the UK with problems on that front.
Don't they have a projection of something like 17 people in three generations time for every 100 in the generation?
Whereas ours is more like 60.
Where are the extra 40 people going to come from Stevo? Or is the plan to double productivity somehow?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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It's even simpler than that.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
Ukranians welcomed with open arms but not Afghans?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Annualising one day's figure to arrive at a number of people who'll arrive in the next decade will certainly lead to the feeling that 'too many' are arriving and something must be done.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Am I the only one to find that quite a remarkable number? I don't mean that from any anti-immigration point of view, more as an indication of how quickly the world, or the UK, is changing.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
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Honestly, how are you supposed to bring up a family when large swathes of young can barely afford to rent their own home and instead live with parents or in house shares?!verylonglegs said:
Am I the only one to find that quite a remarkable number? I don't mean that from any anti-immigration point of view, more as an indication of how quickly the world, or the UK, is changing.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
I know I whine on about the cost of living especially rent and houses but also childcare etc but it all adds up and when people say “don’t have kids if you can’t afford them” people do listen and they don’t.
And this isn’t just a UK thing. It’s the same in a lot of places.
It’s a lot harder to conceive, both emotionally and physically, if you can’t afford anything beyond a bedsit near work.
Or that the cost of childcare means that after costs you’re earning significant under the minimum living wage.
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Change is good. All the interesting stuff happens when things change.verylonglegs said:
Am I the only one to find that quite a remarkable number? I don't mean that from any anti-immigration point of view, more as an indication of how quickly the world, or the UK, is changing.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
Numbers are actually down 17% on last year. Of course if you take the Telegraph's word you'd think the sky was falling in.tailwindhome said:Annualising one day's figure to arrive at a number of people who'll arrive in the next decade will certainly lead to the feeling that 'too many' are arriving and something must be done.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Considering min wage would put you on £21k this must include part timers which does not seem terribly helpfulrick_chasey said:Don’t forget *average* wage of under 30s is around £25k
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No, it's just that working in the City gives a skewed view of where the middle is.surrey_commuter said:
Considering min wage would put you on £21k this must include part timers which does not seem terribly helpfulrick_chasey said:Don’t forget *average* wage of under 30s is around £25k
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
How is it different if a woman was born abroad?rick_chasey said:
Honestly, how are you supposed to bring up a family when large swathes of young can barely afford to rent their own home and instead live with parents or in house shares?!verylonglegs said:
Am I the only one to find that quite a remarkable number? I don't mean that from any anti-immigration point of view, more as an indication of how quickly the world, or the UK, is changing.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
I know I whine on about the cost of living especially rent and houses but also childcare etc but it all adds up and when people say “don’t have kids if you can’t afford them” people do listen and they don’t.
And this isn’t just a UK thing. It’s the same in a lot of places.
It’s a lot harder to conceive, both emotionally and physically, if you can’t afford anything beyond a bedsit near work.
Or that the cost of childcare means that after costs you’re earning significant under the minimum living wage.0 -
It’s not just women it’s potential parents but presumably the same logic that makes immigrants more inclined to undercut local labour applies here too.TheBigBean said:
How is it different if a woman was born abroad?rick_chasey said:
Honestly, how are you supposed to bring up a family when large swathes of young can barely afford to rent their own home and instead live with parents or in house shares?!verylonglegs said:
Am I the only one to find that quite a remarkable number? I don't mean that from any anti-immigration point of view, more as an indication of how quickly the world, or the UK, is changing.rick_chasey said:
That’s the real reason some people don’t like immigrants let’s be honestrjsterry said:On the population point, ONS data just out shows UK birthrate at lowest point since 1977. 1/3 of those births are to mothers born outside the UK.
I know I whine on about the cost of living especially rent and houses but also childcare etc but it all adds up and when people say “don’t have kids if you can’t afford them” people do listen and they don’t.
And this isn’t just a UK thing. It’s the same in a lot of places.
It’s a lot harder to conceive, both emotionally and physically, if you can’t afford anything beyond a bedsit near work.
Or that the cost of childcare means that after costs you’re earning significant under the minimum living wage.0 -
I'm not following the thread of your argument RC. Are you drawing a link between a high cost of living and immigration?0
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Think of it like a striker who knows he is offside, but still puts the ball in the net just in case. The ball is Rick's hobby horse.First.Aspect said:I'm not following the thread of your argument RC. Are you drawing a link between a high cost of living and immigration?
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Low birth rate.First.Aspect said:I'm not following the thread of your argument RC. Are you drawing a link between a high cost of living and immigration?
Which is why immigration is so necessary0 -
Well yes we get the part about low birth rate increasing the need for immigration. No dispute there.rick_chasey said:
Low birth rate.First.Aspect said:I'm not following the thread of your argument RC. Are you drawing a link between a high cost of living and immigration?
Which is why immigration is so necessary
Less sure it's anything to do with the average wage. Much less sure.
I don't live in that much less of a bubble than you do, but I am married to a social worker, who does tend to keep me somewhat grounded. Based on her work, I see absolutely no causal relationship between income and human reproduction rates. If anything, rather the opposite.
The concept also falls flat on its face if you consider how national GDP per capita relates to current birth rate across the world.
It is a nice hypothesis to discuss over a cigar and a single malt in the drawing room, but unfortunately it's total nonsense.0 -
Why is it not a valid goal?rjsterry said:
I'm amazed you think stopping boats is actually the goal.Stevo_666 said:Anyhow, maybe we should look more closely at the Australian experience with curtailing small boat immigration as they seem to have got results:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/they-said-i-couldnt-stop-the-boats-they-were-wrong/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Seems to be enough to be an issue that the government is trying to address.tailwindhome said:
How many people are coming illegally?Stevo_666 said:
Too many people coming to the UK illegally. Do I really need to spell it out?rjsterry said:
You need to articulate the problem. What is *the problem* that you think needs solving?Stevo_666 said:
More than one poster has said that we are signed up to treaties that we have to honour by taking asylum seekers in and that we should make it easier for people to apply for asylum. Read between the lines and that is effectively saying 'come on in'.Jezyboy said:
It's very on brand for the party of personal responsibility to try and wipe our hands of it though.pblakeney said:Maybe if we hadn't contributed just so much to make some places in the world so shitty than this wouldn't be happening.
So what other solutions do you suggest?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stopping people drowning and tackling a corrupt industry is a valid goal.Stevo_666 said:
Why is it not a valid goal?rjsterry said:
I'm amazed you think stopping boats is actually the goal.Stevo_666 said:Anyhow, maybe we should look more closely at the Australian experience with curtailing small boat immigration as they seem to have got results:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/18/they-said-i-couldnt-stop-the-boats-they-were-wrong/
Stopping asylum seekers seeking asylum is not.
The Tories are doing the second one, and pretending it somehow relates to the first.
It doesn't. Asylum seekers are desperate people and criminals don't five a shit about them. All the government is doing is making a bad situation worse. A child can figure this out.0 -
Because its illegal and its costing us a lot of money as mentioned upthread? Are you suggesting we turn a blind eye to criminal activity?rjsterry said:
Well yes. It's not illegal to come to the UK to claim asylum, so who do you mean? People who overstay their visa? Why is it too many when it's a small percentage of overall immigration?Stevo_666 said:
Too many people coming to the UK illegally. Do I really need to spell it out?rjsterry said:
You need to articulate the problem. What is *the problem* that you think needs solving?Stevo_666 said:
More than one poster has said that we are signed up to treaties that we have to honour by taking asylum seekers in and that we should make it easier for people to apply for asylum. Read between the lines and that is effectively saying 'come on in'.Jezyboy said:
It's very on brand for the party of personal responsibility to try and wipe our hands of it though.pblakeney said:Maybe if we hadn't contributed just so much to make some places in the world so shitty than this wouldn't be happening.
So what other solutions do you suggest?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
