LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329

    And here we are. The Tories in a nutshell.

    Some of us have been pointing this out for a while.
    And they are surprised by the number of boats?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,371
    edited August 2023
    pblakeney said:

    And here we are. The Tories in a nutshell.

    Some of us have been pointing this out for a while.
    And they are surprised by the number of boats?

    Somewhere along the line (might be a word beginning with B ), the need to say black was white for political expediency broke any duty they might once have felt not to lie so brazenly and without shame. It seems to be a habit now.

    I know that the asylum thing was first pointed out in committee, but I like Fullfact's blunt summary.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,606
    If I've remembered the news correctly, more people came over on Thursday than could be housed in the Bibby Stockholm (if it didn't have legionnaires).

    Also to (slightly) counter the point about them getting thrown in non Tory strongholds, I've recently found out the Maidenhead (Theresa Mays constituency) holiday Inn has been booked up by the home office...

    I think the Government aren't actually serious about solving the issue, only about trying to look tough around it. It does feel like they'd much rather go for tough looking ineffective measures, rather than potential soft looking effective ones. I think spending so much capital on this will hurt the Conservatives, firstly they just keep reminding everyone that they are ineffective, secondly some of the language is getting over the top, it's going to turn people off.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661

    And here we are. The Tories in a nutshell.

    It’s just trying to bounce Labour into a corner.

    “So Labour **want** to open legal routes?”

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    What's the cost so far for the boat that might get 500 people on it at some point but probably won't?
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,606

    What's the cost so far for the boat that might get 500 people on it at some point but probably won't?

    Little bit of an extreme headline

    https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/news/home-affairs/the-savoy-would-be-cheaper-than-bibby-stockholm/

    If they get it up to capacity...

    It might be OK value for money.

    But as much use as a chocolate tea pot when it comes to "solving" any issues.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Allow applications in UK foreign embassies.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Offer legal routes duh.

    But at least Stevo demonstrates the reason why they’re doing this (to trap labour)
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    edited August 2023

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Offer legal routes duh.

    But at least Stevo demonstrates the reason why they’re doing this (to trap labour)
    Is it really a trap if Labour say they’re going to re-introduce legal routes? I suspect the number of people who think we shouldn’t accept refugees is lower than the popular press would have us believe and most people can see that the tough talk is just talk that had achieved nothing.

    The Tories should probably quietly row away from the subject as their record on a policy they like to make so much noise about is appalling.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    Where do people stay when they are applying for asylum at a UK embassy?
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,170

    Where do people stay when they are applying for asylum at a UK embassy?

    There are usually spare seats in the reception area.
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,225

    Where do people stay when they are applying for asylum at a UK embassy?

    Classic example of "they have reached a safe country if it's got a UK embassy, why don't they stay there".

    Poland and Turkey have taken tons of refugees off the back of the Ukraine and Syrian war respectively, but staying in those countries won't be the right option for all fleeing, or fair to those countries. We only take a tiny percentage of the total.

    Inviting applications in those "first safe countries" would send anyone people trafficking out of business, stop all boats, and if you processed before they came it would eliminate the cost of housing awaiting processing (as soon as here, you could look for work).

    No chance of getting that past the Daily Mail government though.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,371
    The modus operandi of the Tories now seems to be to try break anything they don't like (international asylum, NHS, EU), blame everyone else for the problems, then try to boobytrap any sensible/pragmatic solutions. It might be tied into the fact they don't expect to be in government for quite a while that they don't care about any solutions, as they plan to pin the clusterfuckery on Labour.

    I don't think they are actually interested in governing any more.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    For the lack of capacity problem that the barge is supposed to be a symbol of pretending to address - process applications quicker. Unfortunately, the government chose to do the opposite to deter people coming, and it didn't. Now it's a crisis they talk big about speeding up the process.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Offer legal routes duh.

    But at least Stevo demonstrates the reason why they’re doing this (to trap labour)
    Great idea, it's the detailed planning that impresses me...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,423
    pblakeney said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Allow applications in UK foreign embassies.
    Decent suggestion. Although should that be any UK embassy? As clearly if they are applying from the UK embassy in (say) France or Germany, they are already in a safe country.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Key to understanding the Tory approach is to realise that the policy objective that no one is granted asylum in the UK.

    Once you understand that, everything they do makes sense
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Define the problem.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,648
    Stevo_666 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    Allow applications in UK foreign embassies.
    Decent suggestion. Although should that be any UK embassy? As clearly if they are applying from the UK embassy in (say) France or Germany, they are already in a safe country.
    So?
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    Gotta give super-davo credit for calling that spot on... 🤣
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Quite a poll for the Tories


    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited August 2023

    Quite a poll for the Tories


    Might be clearer to read if you click through the twitter link

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    I wonder what percentage think Rwanda is just a processing centre


    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329

    Key to understanding the Tory approach is to realise that the policy objective that no one is granted asylum in the UK.

    Once you understand that, everything they do makes sense

    Wot he said.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918

    Where do people stay when they are applying for asylum at a UK embassy?

    Classic example of "they have reached a safe country if it's got a UK embassy, why don't they stay there".

    Poland and Turkey have taken tons of refugees off the back of the Ukraine and Syrian war respectively, but staying in those countries won't be the right option for all fleeing, or fair to those countries. We only take a tiny percentage of the total.

    Inviting applications in those "first safe countries" would send anyone people trafficking out of business, stop all boats, and if you processed before they came it would eliminate the cost of housing awaiting processing (as soon as here, you could look for work).

    No chance of getting that past the Daily Mail government though.
    You have completely misrepresented my question. The issue is that if someone applies for asylum in the UK, the UK has an obligation to house and feed them throughout the process. This process takes a while.

    If someone applies in another country who is responsible? In most cases, the embassy would provide that, but that is not really practical given the numbers. Therefore, if the UK remains liable it would need to lease loads of space all round the world to accommodate the applicants. Clearly this is something that could be done, but it is not as simple as saying "accept applications abroad".

    Alternatively, the host country could accommodate the refugees, but I'd imagine that would get tricky as they haven't applied for asylum in that country.

    Even if such a system was set up, do you think people would spend years on hold in a third country when they want to be in the UK? What about the people who know they won't get asylum or are refused? Surely, they would continue to cross, so at best the numbers drop a bit.

    It's always easy to sit at home and say it could all be done better, but things are never that easy.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918
    ddraver said:

    Gotta give super-davo credit for calling that spot on... 🤣

    I think I have posted enough on this forum for you to know better.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,918

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    For the lack of capacity problem that the barge is supposed to be a symbol of pretending to address - process applications quicker. Unfortunately, the government chose to do the opposite to deter people coming, and it didn't. Now it's a crisis they talk big about speeding up the process.
    Think of it as a medium term solution. Hotels are short term. Building infrastructure would be long term.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,371
    pblakeney said:

    Key to understanding the Tory approach is to realise that the policy objective that no one is granted asylum in the UK.

    Once you understand that, everything they do makes sense

    Wot he said.

    Hence the mutterings about the ECHR, as they are in effect the collective conscience for how displaced people should be treated, and current Tories feel no duty to people less fortunate than themselves.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,371

    Stevo_666 said:

    It would be interesting to hear what the good people of Cake Stop think are the solutions here.

    For the lack of capacity problem that the barge is supposed to be a symbol of pretending to address - process applications quicker. Unfortunately, the government chose to do the opposite to deter people coming, and it didn't. Now it's a crisis they talk big about speeding up the process.
    Think of it as a medium term solution. Hotels are short term. Building infrastructure would be long term.

    Medium-term, as in 'one day'?