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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    edited January 2021
    Fees at the top level are anywhere from £70k-250k so I would suggest, politely, that the recruiters you are dealing with are working on a different business model, i.e. they're contingent not search.

    There are extremely low barriers to entry for low level recruitment. You need an email address, a phone and the internet and you can wing a lot of people into firms in the hope one of them gets hired.

    It's a rather different model when you're charging the kind of fees above for one hire, of which 2/3rds will be paid before anyone joins and there is a thick cancellation fee too.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,642
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    pblakeney said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    I've always disliked the adverts for jobs that say must have 10+ years experience and a masters (in anything).

    you might find it linked to legislation banning discrimination by age
    What does age have to do with it? I'm querying the need for a masters in an irrelevant subject when that much experience is required.
    masters + 10 years = no millennials
    Probably few 50+ either as they rarely went for their Masters. (Industry dependant).
    Narrowing the selection down...
    That was my initial interpretation of surrey_commuter's comment, but I supposed someone 50+ could be dismissed as too experienced.
    so you have now written an ad that says the ideal candidate will be 35-50
    My grievance is being excluded for not having the irrelevant masters despite potentially being the right age. Although age obviously shouldn't count.
    You are aggrieved at not getting a hypothetical job? why not get a hypothetical masters?

    Let me know if you need a reference😀
    It was a specific job, but I have seen it more than once. I was even willing to take a pay cut.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,316
    Where are these £100k houses?
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,589
    surrey_commuter said:

    pblakeney said:

    Pross said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    I get this at least once a week.
    Likewise.
    I am genuinely bemused, do these people not have electricity? it is years since I had a call as it is all done on LI which is your shop window to project what you want.

    This means that they are easily replaced with internal recruiters who have all the downsides you lot mention.
    I get emails mainly but occasional calls along the lines of "the last time we spoke you were a Principal Engineer at [insert company name] are you still there and how is it going". I left there 5 years ago and had been promoted 2 years before that so their information is at least 7 years old, I probably never spoke with them before and they've somehow got my old CV on record from a colleague I spoke to back then.

    What makes it even more odd is that I used to get loads of emails from these companies when GDPR came in begging me to give consent or they would have to delete my records and wouldn't be able to contact me with amazing opportunities any more. I ignored them so someone forgot to put my information in the metaphorical shredder.

    LinkedIn is just spam most of the time these days too. Virtually everyone who requests that I connect with them is either a recruiter who then bombards me with excellent candidates for jobs when we aren't recruiting or someone trying to sell mortgages, pensions, wills or technical products that are not related to my work. I feel sorry for the people who try to do these jobs properly, do their research and know what they are doing as they get dragged down by association.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,589
    Ha, I thought this was the trivially annoying thread but anyway just to had to the off topic rants on the subject. I've had several of the "great opportunity on half your current salary on the other side of the country in a related discipline but not your speciality" emails that then get followed up with incredulous emails because you haven't responded and must have missed it. I also hate it when a job advert says they want a person in a technical role due to having loads of work then the first thing they list in the 'person specification' is the importance of business development.

    Touching on Big Bean's comments about roles requiring a Masters, when I was last looking I applied for several jobs doing the same role on the same money in a different company but they would insist the applicant had to be Chartered so they would rather have someone with 20 years less experience because they'd passed a professional review. They wouldn't even interview without it.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,560
    rick_chasey said:

    Fees at the top level are anywhere from £70k-250k so I would suggest, politely, that the recruiters you are dealing with are working on a different business model, i.e. they're contingent not search.

    There are extremely low barriers to entry for low level recruitment. You need an email address, a phone and the internet and you can wing a lot of people into firms in the hope one of them gets hired.

    It's a rather different model when you're charging the kind of fees above for one hire, of which 2/3rds will be paid before anyone joins and there is a thick cancellation fee too.

    So aside from a spot of extra market research, the generally higher salaries involved and getting paid even if you don't fill the position, what's the big difference?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,589
    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Fees at the top level are anywhere from £70k-250k so I would suggest, politely, that the recruiters you are dealing with are working on a different business model, i.e. they're contingent not search.

    There are extremely low barriers to entry for low level recruitment. You need an email address, a phone and the internet and you can wing a lot of people into firms in the hope one of them gets hired.

    It's a rather different model when you're charging the kind of fees above for one hire, of which 2/3rds will be paid before anyone joins and there is a thick cancellation fee too.

    So aside from a spot of extra market research, the generally higher salaries involved and getting paid even if you don't fill the position, what's the big difference?
    Presumably actually listening to the client's needs and the candidate's experience and ensuring you are matching the two? I don't know anything about companies that will pay that level of fee to get someone in the door but I suspect you don't get many chances to meet their requirements.

    Of course you could argue that is the bare minimum anyone using a recruitment consultant should expect but the reality when someone has stumbled into the job out of Uni when they couldn't find anything else except maybe a call centre, are earning minimum wage and relying on 'sales' to get a bonus the quality goes in favour of turnaround. When I first used recruitment consultants in my line of work a lot of them had worked in the sector first and understood what the job involved, now it's just a scattergun approach.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,805
    Pross said:

    When I first used recruitment consultants in my line of work a lot of them had worked in the sector first and understood what the job involved, now it's just a scattergun approach.

    Very much this.
    Bods in seats and collect 10%. Doesn't work out? Get another bod.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    edited January 2021
    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Fees at the top level are anywhere from £70k-250k so I would suggest, politely, that the recruiters you are dealing with are working on a different business model, i.e. they're contingent not search.

    There are extremely low barriers to entry for low level recruitment. You need an email address, a phone and the internet and you can wing a lot of people into firms in the hope one of them gets hired.

    It's a rather different model when you're charging the kind of fees above for one hire, of which 2/3rds will be paid before anyone joins and there is a thick cancellation fee too.

    So aside from a spot of extra market research, the generally higher salaries involved and getting paid even if you don't fill the position, what's the big difference?
    Contingent isn’t much more than firing CVs. They meet good candidates and wing them into clients.

    Some might meet with their clients and they may need x but no commitment. If the candidate gets places a fee is made, if not, no fee.

    Search is much more of a commitment. You pay money up front to one firm to find a specific role. The firm will go away and come back with a shortlist, as well as an assessment of everyone else relevant in the market.

    The assessment is usually much more intense, and in order to do all of the above in a timely manner, you need to know your sector well; you need to have the contacts and the industry knowledge to understand what makes someone good and not and to parse the candidates apart.

    You also need enough credibility to get the candidate to want to speak and meet to you - the Deputy CEO at a big firm doesn’t usually answer the phone to anyone, nor do they have much time to meet a recruiter.

    Because the roles are also more critical (usually) there is also an expectation the hher can bring candidates who aren’t looking but very good to the table.

    I have usually met roughly half the potential candidate base even before we kick a search off, just through networking.

    There are other benefits; if you need to discreetly find a replacement for someone without them knowing, the hher can give you an assessment for the best replacement without letting anyone know for example.

    The candidates also get a better service; the hher is well informed, knows the candidate already, either from prior conversations or through referencing. Eg I would never call someone up cold without having taken a view or two from people I trust that they would be right for the role.

    You also get additional insights on wider market gossip, intelligence on rivals etc etc.

    Then they are there to advise on compensation negotiations which at that level are not straightforward.

    The fees reflect this.
    _
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    edited January 2021
    The lady doth protest too much.

    Jeez Rick, this isn't about you!

    😉
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    edited January 2021
    elbowloh said:

    The lady doth protest too much.

    Jeez Rick, this isn't about you!

    😉

    Yeah I'm not gonna lie, it's an occupational hazard that people will tell you all their awful recruitment stories as soon as you let them know what you do.

    I have had multiple people who I have never met at parties find out what I do, go on a rant and end up swearing at me before I've even said anything else.

    At the bottom end it's as spivvy as it gets, and at the top end it's not too dissimilar from a consulting job.

    By nature most people deal with the bottom end, so that's what they think it all is.
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,805
    Not wishing to be patronising to the top end, but the middle isn't any better than the bottom end. Top end is likely to be what? 5-10%. That leave a 90-95% chance of spivvery.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    pblakeney said:

    Not wishing to be patronising to the top end, but the middle isn't any better than the bottom end. Top end is likely to be what? 5-10%. That leave a 90-95% chance of spivvery.

    Yup yup.
    _
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    rick_chasey said:

    elbowloh said:

    The lady doth protest too much.

    Jeez Rick, this isn't about you!

    😉

    Yeah I'm not gonna lie, it's an occupational hazard that people will tell you all their awful recruitment stories as soon as you let them know what you do.

    I have had multiple people who I have never met at parties find out what I do, go on a rant and end up swearing at me before I've even said anything else.

    At the bottom end it's as spivvy as it gets, and at the top end it's not too dissimilar from a consulting job.

    By nature most people deal with the bottom end, so that's what they think it all is.
    Many years ago, i worked for British Standards and tried to explain to my friends what i did. It was a bit tricky, so i mentioned kite marks on windows etc.

    Next thing i know i'm being introduced as by them to people as a condom tester.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,560
    rick_chasey said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Fees at the top level are anywhere from £70k-250k so I would suggest, politely, that the recruiters you are dealing with are working on a different business model, i.e. they're contingent not search.

    There are extremely low barriers to entry for low level recruitment. You need an email address, a phone and the internet and you can wing a lot of people into firms in the hope one of them gets hired.

    It's a rather different model when you're charging the kind of fees above for one hire, of which 2/3rds will be paid before anyone joins and there is a thick cancellation fee too.

    So aside from a spot of extra market research, the generally higher salaries involved and getting paid even if you don't fill the position, what's the big difference?
    Contingent isn’t much more than firing CVs. They meet good candidates and wing them into clients.

    Some might meet with their clients and they may need x but no commitment. If the candidate gets places a fee is made, if not, no fee.

    Search is much more of a commitment. You pay money up front to one firm to find a specific role. The firm will go away and come back with a shortlist, as well as an assessment of everyone else relevant in the market.

    The assessment is usually much more intense, and in order to do all of the above in a timely manner, you need to know your sector well; you need to have the contacts and the industry knowledge to understand what makes someone good and not and to parse the candidates apart.

    You also need enough credibility to get the candidate to want to speak and meet to you - the Deputy CEO at a big firm doesn’t usually answer the phone to anyone, nor do they have much time to meet a recruiter.

    Because the roles are also more critical (usually) there is also an expectation the hher can bring candidates who aren’t looking but very good to the table.

    I have usually met roughly half the potential candidate base even before we kick a search off, just through networking.

    There are other benefits; if you need to discreetly find a replacement for someone without them knowing, the hher can give you an assessment for the best replacement without letting anyone know for example.

    The candidates also get a better service; the hher is well informed, knows the candidate already, either from prior conversations or through referencing. Eg I would never call someone up cold without having taken a view or two from people I trust that they would be right for the role.

    You also get additional insights on wider market gossip, intelligence on rivals etc etc.

    Then they are there to advise on compensation negotiations which at that level are not straightforward.

    The fees reflect this.
    OK, fair enough. I have used search once because it was such a niche role that it warranted that (Customs manager in The Netherlands), rather than the sort of senior roles you work to fill. And this was done by a recruiting form which more often does contingent. In the end job done and the guy is still working for me.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,589
    rick_chasey said:

    elbowloh said:

    The lady doth protest too much.

    Jeez Rick, this isn't about you!

    😉

    Yeah I'm not gonna lie, it's an occupational hazard that people will tell you all their awful recruitment stories as soon as you let them know what you do.

    I have had multiple people who I have never met at parties find out what I do, go on a rant and end up swearing at me before I've even said anything else.

    At the bottom end it's as spivvy as it gets, and at the top end it's not too dissimilar from a consulting job.

    By nature most people deal with the bottom end, so that's what they think it all is.
    Jeez they must have been homicidal after actually talking to you!

  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,316
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    Your argument only holds up because of the direct correlation you have invented between house price and effort by the estate agent. There will be a relationship but it's not 1:1
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    edited January 2021
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    We are going to have to disagree on this. People who focus on the percentage miss the bigger picture. An financial adviser doing a yearly appraisal and charging a 1% fee will often tell you that the direction of your portfolio is really important to them and point to how their pay is linked to performance. The reality is that it is the quantity of funds held at any point that determines how much he gets paid. He can try to get a smaller pool of money to have above average return every year or he can manage 5 times as much money and merely seek to have a passable record compared to his competition. Given that they are a middle man should they A spend all their time trying to get you a slightly better return for your money or B invest their time in getting as many clients as possible to increase the overall quantity of funds managed. This is what you don't understand about percentages. The same argument works for estate agents and many other services on a percentage basis. They want turnover of sales as well as working the percentage in balance to maximise their profit, not yours.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    I hate to be annoying SC but John is right in principal that, excluding wild price changes, the focus for most standard estate agents is volume over price.

    The difference between £500k and £480k isn't really that material to the overall estate agent fee.

    _
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,316
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    I hate to be annoying SC but John is right in principal that, excluding wild price changes, the focus for most standard estate agents is volume over price.

    The difference between £500k and £480k isn't really that material to the overall estate agent fee.

    Likewise I'm going to have to pick you up on that Rick...

    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    I hate to be annoying SC but John is right in principal that, excluding wild price changes, the focus for most standard estate agents is volume over price.

    The difference between £500k and £480k isn't really that material to the overall estate agent fee.

    Likewise I'm going to have to pick you up on that Rick...

    :D
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,694
    What have the last xxxx knows how many posts got to do with #toryscumbags?

    Jest askin' like.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    orraloon said:

    What have the last xxxx knows how many posts got to do with #toryscumbags?

    Jest askin' like.

    Singapore on Thames

    Singapore has a top rate of tax of 22% - woohoo
    Singapore Govt spending is 17% of GDP (UK is 35%)
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    pangolin said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    I hate to be annoying SC but John is right in principal that, excluding wild price changes, the focus for most standard estate agents is volume over price.

    The difference between £500k and £480k isn't really that material to the overall estate agent fee.

    Likewise I'm going to have to pick you up on that Rick...

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    elbowloh said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    bompington said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I assumed you were all talking about what is the best way to manage immigration on a more macro level, not advising Rick how to do his job.

    Ah, but Rick's job would seem to be the only job in the world that manages to beat teaching for being both easier to do and staffed by more incompetent people ;)
    Those that can’t, recruit

    Or rec cons are all failed teachers
    90% of the recruiters I have had dealings with seem to have no idea about the sector they are recruiting into, put you forward for stuff that is not related to what you do or wish to do and for things that are £10-20k less than you are currently paid.

    Or things like: there's this role, it's a similar to something you were doing 15 years ago when a junior, it's £20k less you're paid now and you'd have to live away from home during the week. I mean wtf?
    Recruiters are no difference to estate agents. They don't care whether you house sells for list price or 20% under as they're commission is minimally affected. For a recruiter the more people they place a day the more money they make. They could not care less it's impact on the person and only seek to avoid complete embarrassment for risk of harming future contracts with the client that is not the person being placed.
    Sure, at the lower salary range.
    No Rick, not all rec cons at the lower level are as described,

    Estate agent does care if the price drops 20% because his fee drops 20%!!!!!!
    This completely ignored the number sold. Sure let's say he is on 1% of 100k. Would he rather have the 1k in his pocket in three months time or 800 in his pocket tomorrow. Then there is the make this sale and three connected sales at the same time setup that is often in play. He would sell it for a pound for that to still be beneficial for them. What is the cost to the estate agent to talking to the seller every week with no sale done.
    Yep you got me there if he is on a % fee and the sales drops by 20% his fee does not fall by 20%
    What is 1% of 100k. What is 1% of 80k. I will just let that sink in for you.
    Yep he has just cut his earnings by 20%

    Raise the house value to £1m and cut the price by £20k and see the difference in fee
    Yeah and he has sold 5 times as many houses but I am sure your still think he is poorer with his 20% fee cut on each house. Do you often focus on a single thing instead of stringing them together to consider what is the optimum for the estate agent.
    i know the point you are trying to make but you have got it wrong because you don't understand percentages.

    I hate to be annoying SC but John is right in principal that, excluding wild price changes, the focus for most standard estate agents is volume over price.

    The difference between £500k and £480k isn't really that material to the overall estate agent fee.

    No problem- you are agreeing with me

    In both examples the punter loses £20k. In John’s eg the agent loses 20% of his fee, in your example he loses 4%.

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