Brexit: Let's call the whole thing off..

bompington

Matthewfalle wrote:

hell's teeth, most of them still think britain is a first tier world nation - contrary to what the FCO actually says you are.

Presumably, since you have such a low opinion of "our" country, you'll be off back to wherever you came from soon?

Matthewfalle

bompington wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

hell's teeth, most of them still think britain is a first tier world nation - contrary to what the FCO actually says you are.

Presumably, since you have such a low opinion of "our" country, you'll be off back to wherever you came from soon?

its called reality. do you honestly think britain is still a first tier country?

shortfall

Matthewfalle wrote:

bompington wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

hell's teeth, most of them still think britain is a first tier world nation - contrary to what the FCO actually says you are.

Presumably, since you have such a low opinion of "our" country, you'll be off back to wherever you came from soon?

its called reality. do you honestly think britain is still a first tier country?

That doesn't answer Bomp's question.

rolf_f

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

So you think that 34 million people voted to leave the EU (34 million being just over half the population - roughly the smallest number that can be counted as a majority)?

Matthewfalle

more people who bothered to turn out voted to leave than those who voted to remain. the result was taken off that as per the rules of the game.

who knows if the result - ie a leave majority - would have been the same if there had been a 100% turnout?

we all know i'm a remainer but unfortunately the population who turned out to vote decided to screw the country. everyone knew the consequences of a leave vote.

Matthewfalle

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

proto

Matthewfalle wrote:

its called reality. do you honestly think britain is still a first tier country?

I have some sympathy with your question/comment (aircraft carriers and nuclear subs FFS!!) but we are still the world's fith biggest economy, so I'd say we are still at the top table.

surrey_commuter

proto wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

its called reality. do you honestly think britain is still a first tier country?

I have some sympathy with your question/comment (aircraft carriers and nuclear subs FFS!!) but we are still the world's fith biggest economy, so I'd say we are still at the top table.

Always the line trotted out is that we are the 5th largest economy. A better stat would be the % of the world economy that we account for and how that compares to the undisputed top tier.

ugo.santalucia

Surrey Commuter wrote:

proto wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

its called reality. do you honestly think britain is still a first tier country?

I have some sympathy with your question/comment (aircraft carriers and nuclear subs FFS!!) but we are still the world's fith biggest economy, so I'd say we are still at the top table.

Always the line trotted out is that we are the 5th largest economy. A better stat would be the % of the world economy that we account for and how that compares to the undisputed top tier.

I thought it was 6th due to the shrinkage of the pound...

ugo.santalucia

Matthewfalle wrote:

more people who bothered to turn out voted to leave than those who voted to remain. the result was taken off that as per the rules of the game.

who knows if the result - ie a leave majority - would have been the same if there had been a 100% turnout?

we all know i'm a remainer but unfortunately the population who turned out to vote decided to screw the country. everyone knew the consequences of a leave vote.

There was scaremongery on one side and unrealistic promises on the other side... the choice was poor... it was either stay as you are or believe those morons who tell you we could be so much better off from day 1.

Those unhappy about their life, decided to go for the morons, those satisfied with the status quo decided to stay. My feeling is that the Leave result was by and large due to 6 years of austerity...

rick_chasey

U.K. is neck and neck with California in terms of economy size, for context.

Not sure why this needs another thread.

pblakeney

Matthewfalle wrote:

to put your election analgy in place what you're saying is - for example - May 1 the Tories are voted in, May 2 you say "nah, don't like what the majority of people voted for, lets try again".

The really, really ironic part is that it was a Brexiteer who started the campaign before the results were known.

briantrumpet

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure why this needs another thread.

It doesn't.

rolf_f

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

Just nit pickery. Principle remains the same. Meanwhile, are you still convinced that 34 million voted out? You're turning into 2Fish in this thread.

Matthewfalle

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

Just nit pickery. Principle remains the same. Meanwhile, are you still convinced that 34 million voted out? You're turning into 2Fish in this thread.

no - 52% of the people who bothered to turn out to decide the future of their country voted to leave. therefore the majority.

perhaps if the rest had given 2 sh1its then britain may not be in such a mess.

and yes - i am very conscious of sounding like fishbum. i feel a bit soiled tbh.

tangled_metal

My maths might be out here so can you check it for me?

2017-2015 = 2
2018 - 2016 = 2.

Same time between referenda as between general elections. Why is time really an issue?

Surely it's based on evidence of a need with the second referendum. Nobody presented to the voters what the reality of a Brexit was likely to be. How could they really know what was going to come out of negotiations? Now there's more information on a potential deal if not at least there's an obvious fact in the pain it's causing and going to continue causing for some time. Asking the voters if they're really sure about this might be a good idea. Afterall you do get a natural cooling off period in the 2 years after A50 declaration. You get cooling off periods with various personal financial products, why not with Brexit? Give voters a chance to strengthen the mandate or remove it.

There was a vote to allow the 2017 election. A vote (and laws) would give us a second referendum. Parliament would decide on the referendum like they did over the short term parliament and the election in 2017.

Jez mon

Rick Chasey wrote:

U.K. is neck and neck with California in terms of economy size, for context.

Not sure why this needs another thread.

Which is the largest state economically, by some margin.

Not sure trying to split countries into tiers is particularly helpful anyhow. Its not like America is free of social problems despite being number one...

rolf_f

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

Just nit pickery. Principle remains the same. Meanwhile, are you still convinced that 34 million voted out? You're turning into 2Fish in this thread.

no - 52% of the people who bothered to turn out to decide the future of their country voted to leave. therefore the majority.

perhaps if the rest had given 2 sh1its then britain may not be in such a mess.

and yes - i am very conscious of sounding like fishbum. i feel a bit soiled tbh.

Still not the majority of people - just the majority of voters. But maybe I'm nitpicking too..... Anyway, sod off back to the Trump thread; you are more fun there....!

Matthewfalle

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

Just nit pickery. Principle remains the same. Meanwhile, are you still convinced that 34 million voted out? You're turning into 2Fish in this thread.

no - 52% of the people who bothered to turn out to decide the future of their country voted to leave. therefore the majority.

perhaps if the rest had given 2 sh1its then britain may not be in such a mess.

and yes - i am very conscious of sounding like fishbum. i feel a bit soiled tbh.

Still not the majority of people - just the majority of voters. But maybe I'm nitpicking too..... Anyway, sod off back to the Trump thread; you are more fun there....!

fine i'm off to bring sense and sensibility unto all those who mock at the altar of the dotard.

tangled_metal

So how many countries do have the economy the size of california then? Oh that's not many of them. I would bet the economy of an important region in China could claim something similar but that's irrelevant really. If the UK economy is 6th it's not a small bit player. If it has good representation across most of the world's nations (FCO, embassies, consulates, British Council, commonwealth, etc) it's not a bit player. If it's got armed forces that's still got capability to work with its allies (and offer something useful) then it's not a bit player IMHO.

If you mean any nation that's not got an economy at big as China or Usa is second tier i would agree.

Different measures place UK 5th to 8th. One PwC study reckons that by 2050 UK will be 10th behind Germany and above Turkey then France. USA drops to third. What's interesting in that is how France and UK have similar populations but UK, its higher. Also Germany has a lot higher I believe but is only one place higher. Only one factor but I'd have thought Germany would be higher up by a few places. Mind you the countries above then have a lot larger populations and/or more heavily resourced in raw materials. Of course the is crystal ball stuff so probably won't happen.

ballysmate

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ahh, I didn't realise that your "next day" analogy was so temporally specific. How many days after the election would it be appropriate to run another election then?

And, should point out yet again - the majority of people in the UK did not vote to leave. The majority of voters in the UK voted to leave. It isn't the same thing.

the amount of time as stated in Law.

And yes they did. They voted to leave the EU so your country is leaving.

Amount of time as stated in Law - isn't that meant to be about 5 years? Do you think that 2017-2015 = 5?

sorry but you're wrong - so long as there is a 2/3rds majority in the House you can call an early election.

Just nit pickery. Principle remains the same. Meanwhile, are you still convinced that 34 million voted out? You're turning into 2Fish in this thread.

no - 52% of the people who bothered to turn out to decide the future of their country voted to leave. therefore the majority.

perhaps if the rest had given 2 sh1its then britain may not be in such a mess.

and yes - i am very conscious of sounding like fishbum. i feel a bit soiled tbh.

Still not the majority of people - just the majority of voters. But maybe I'm nitpicking too..... Anyway, sod off back to the Trump thread; you are more fun there....!

Jesus H Christ!
If you don't vote, your opinion counts for fuckall.

robert88

briantrumpet wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure why this needs another thread.

It doesn't.

I started a new thread because I wanted to drain the swamp that Brexit has mired us in.

It was an attempt to drag us back on to the firm ground of affirmative action, the sunny uplands of hope . UNlike Theresa May I did realise the impossibility of the task but just thought I'd give it a go anyway.

Now I realise there are no sunny uplands of hope and Brexit is merely a sign post to Slough. That's the Slough of Despond not the one in Berks.

tangled_metal

I figured out how complex Brexit would be well before the referendum happened. What woke be up to that realisation was a meal with my partner's work colleagues. As a PhD student she was in a group that had only two people from the same country and that wasn't the UK. My partner studied overseas too. As I thought about which way to vote I remembered that meal. I thought about funding for UK university research. I thought about how a lot is EU funded. The collaboration between EU based universities. The complex integration and how it is going to be changed.

Then I thought how many other areas of UK life, business, education, research, etc is going to end up with a similar process of extrication. I shuddered and tried to look for the positives of Brexit instead. I looked at the 350 million and thought how unlikely it was. I looked at the arguments over immigration and thought that tbh there's enough of that under UK control (non-eu) to not be an issue and tbh net migration is and always has been positive for the UK. I didn't see it as a real problem.

Sure I work in a town with a higher than normal polish ex pat community. It keeps itself apart from the rest of the local community except for work where they have to integrate a not. It was not the level of problem that UKIP made out IMHO.

So I looked at the complexity of leaving compared to the feeling that we're actually alright Jack in the EU and voted remain.

IMHO Brexit isn't something that is positive. I believe the damage will last. It's impossible to say where we'd be without it but I doubt we'll do as well. Plus the damage has been done so stopping it will probably make little difference immediately if at all. So it's really just time to roll the dice and see what happens. Let the Brexiteers prove how bad it will be. Perhaps give them the hard Brexit they want. But if we do that then I hope it's a Brexiteer running government when the brown stuff really hits the fan. Let Brexiteers our mess out.

I suspect I'm thinking JR-M or the blonde mop as pm!

Ben6899

Let's call it off, but anyone who voted Brexit to give "the liberal elite" a boot... they still have to queue for milk.

The chippy cu*ts.

tangled_metal

Let's change Brexit into a public referendum on the political system we want? End Brexit then ask the nation if the current political lot are serving the nation. If the answer is negative they all have to b quit and the civil servants run it until we get a better crowd and better system.

Not a serious suggestion BTW. Although I do like the idea of the public kicking people out of politics. Portillo and Balls were very funny examples of what could be!

fenix

[quote="Tangled Metal"

Sure I work in a town with a higher than normal polish ex pat community. It keeps itself apart from the rest of the local community except for work where they have to integrate a not. It was not the level of problem that UKIP made out IMHO.

[/quote]

I believe that the constituencies who voted to leave haven't got any significant levels of EU immigration. The ones that had have realised that they're just like us but with an accent and can't see any reason to leave the EU and kick out their friends colleagues and neighbours.

tangled_metal

Actually not true. Our area was a definite leave voting area. It was on the national news just before the referendum as a bell weather constituency (to nick the American phrase). Which way Lancaster voted the UK would vote. Turns out it voted more strongly for Brexit than the UK as a whole.

The Polish immigrant issue is lessened here though because it has always had a Polish community. There's a Polish church in the town too. I believe the community dates from before WWII as well. However there are a lot more Polish food shops around (and tanning salons but that's another story).

At work the sentiments were leave was the thing they wanted. However now there's more backpedalling than from the Hoxton (I think) hipster fixie crowd! It's fun listening to someone ranting about how the Brexiteers are ruining out country and it was a bad decision to leave. Only to shut them up after their rant by reminding them they voted leave. There's still some all for Brexit one guy was always Brexit not for immigration reasons but he goes all swivel eyed loon over the EU commission and Parliament being corrupt. Another few guys are purely racist who believe anyone who's not white and pure English should be sent out of the country. Pretty much all the others either "don't know about politics" but voted leave because others did. Or you get some who don't care and didn't vote. I think about 4%b of the shopfloor voted remain.

However they're all seeing work dropping off as old projects come to an end and the new ones haven't been nominated to us at the rate they used to be. We're on the crumbs falling from the EU table now.

Sorry for more pessimism. It just feels like there's going to be some people looking for jobs shortly. There's not many going neither. Plus I'm the one filling in Brexit readiness forms for larger companies we supply who have large teams sending out forms asking if we're ready for Brexit like we have a clue what is going to happen.

robert88

Ask your MP (nicely) to Call the Whole Thing Off.

Here's a nice, incredibly easy and cheap way to do it:

How to tell your MP that Brexit is madness

..and you will get a certificate (which you will have to print yourself -sorry.)

cougie

Done. If we can get this whole thing called off it will be the best Christmas present the country ever received.

robert88

European Court of Justice rules Britain can unilaterally revoke Article 50

A spokeswoman for the ECJ said: "In today's judgment, the Full Court has ruled that, when a Member State has notified the European Council of its intention to withdraw from the European Union, as the UK has done, that Member State is free to revoke unilaterally that notification.

"That possibility exists for as long as a withdrawal agreement concluded between the EU and that Member State has not entered into force or, if no such agreement has been concluded, for as long as the two-year period from the date of the notification of the intention to withdraw from the EU, and any possible extension, has not expired."

Easy-peasy.

How to tell your MP that Brexit is madness