Fat Britain - getting bigger..

craigus89

wongataa wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

I've had discussions with people before and they argue that junk food outlets are often in poor areas and that poor people can't afford to eat healthily. I don't think that argument really works, all of the junk food places here are at least £5/£6 each, I could make a bolognese for 4 for less than that.

I bet the people who eat a lot of takeaways would not know that you could or how make meals from scratch that are cheaper than takeaways.

Do they not have access to the internet? There are only so many excuses you can make for people. Assuming that they are too stupid or uneducated to know how to cook or what food is healthy is worse than deriding people because they're overweight.

haydenm

rjsterry wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

On the other hand, do you really think that people are more lazy and have less self control than in, say, the 1950s?

Yes.

Don't be ridiculous. It's always been a disease of opportunity. It's just that until the last few decades that opportunity has been restricted to those with more money - mostly wealthy people got fat. People have always been lazy and irresponsible, unless you are proposing some evolutionary change in brain chemistry that mysteriously correlates with the promotion of low-fat (high sugar) food as a solution to more sedentary lifestyles.

This is essentially what I was getting at (before I mentioned debt/availability of credit). Almost everyone can afford to get fat now, it's about self control, education and genetics rather than cost.

haydenm

Craigus89 wrote:

wongataa wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

I've had discussions with people before and they argue that junk food outlets are often in poor areas and that poor people can't afford to eat healthily. I don't think that argument really works, all of the junk food places here are at least £5/£6 each, I could make a bolognese for 4 for less than that.

I bet the people who eat a lot of takeaways would not know that you could or how make meals from scratch that are cheaper than takeaways.

Do they not have access to the internet? There are only so many excuses you can make for people. Assuming that they are too stupid or uneducated to know how to cook or what food is healthy is worse than deriding people because they're overweight.

Not being educated about cheap healthy eating doesn't really mean they are too stupid to learn. If you were never taught it at home or school then why would you know? I try to eat healthily to stay light for cycling and to eat nice food, my mum used to spend a long time cooking healthy food from scratch for us, a lot of people don't have that. Prior to that a lot of people couldn't afford to have an option

fenix

We are richer than we've ever been .

I think humans are coded to be greedy and lazy. If you're not then you may struggle in hard times. It's human nature.

Jobs are usually sedentary now - and it's very easy to consume well over what you need in calories.

You'd think they'd take note when you can no longer see your feet that something is out of balance but...

craigus89

HaydenM wrote:

If you were never taught it at home or school then why would you know?

Maybe because you are fat and wheezing and feel body conscious, or because the doctor told you that you could do to lose a few, so you think to yourself, "maybe I should cut back on the chippy, I know, I'll google healthy food and see what comes up."

But that was my point that I don't think people are body conscious these days because the majority are overweight anyway, so there is no shame in it.

Are you assuming or suggesting that this type of 'poor' person can never change unless they are forced to?

my_grandadʹs_bike

Stevo 666 wrote:

We're all going to Rotherham...

Should be a Macc Lads song title that.

rolf_f

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

If you were never taught it at home or school then why would you know?

Maybe because you are fat and wheezing and feel body conscious, or because the doctor told you that you could do to lose a few, so you think to yourself, "maybe I should cut back on the chippy, I know, I'll google healthy food and see what comes up."

But that was my point that I don't think people are body conscious these days because the majority are overweight anyway, so there is no shame in it.

I'm not sure that there is no shame in being fat - it's just that the shame is shared now and therefore easier to live with. Though obviously the media doesn't help by implying that it is OK to be fat and that people should embrace their fatness (assuming their arms are long enough).

photonic69

To put some perspective on this isse:

Humans have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years from the time we were hunter/gatherers when we foraged for food. When times plenty we would gorge on what we had and put on weight/fat very quickly to enable us to survive the periods when we were unlucky at the hunt or food was less plentiful. We would also expend a lot of energy in just finding enough food to eat to stay alive.

It was only in the last say 10,000 years that we started to farm. This is quite a short period in evolution. It was still hard graft and energy was expended to get food. As society developed and people became leaders and had others to do the hard work for them then they became fatter/bigger but the slaves/workers remained thin.

Now we have plentiful access to food with very high calorific value and we don't even need to stand up to get it delivered to our homes. Our physiology is still the same in readily storing fat for use later when we have none, but the none never happens now.

Most people consume food without a thought for the calorific (sugar/fat) content. They just like the taste and the feeling of being full and their appetite sated. People need to be educated to care about what they eat and only then when they can make the right choice will things change.

Of course there are exceptions to this generalisation and some people can eat a lot and not gain significant weight.

haydenm

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

If you were never taught it at home or school then why would you know?

Maybe because you are fat and wheezing and feel body conscious, or because the doctor told you that you could do to lose a few, so you think to yourself, "maybe I should cut back on the chippy, I know, I'll google healthy food and see what comes up."

But that was my point that I don't think people are body conscious these days because the majority are overweight anyway, so there is no shame in it.

Are you assuming or suggesting that this type of 'poor' person can never change unless they are forced to?

Well, clearly people people struggle or don't want to change or they would. My point is that I think it's an educational issue in terms of valuing healthy eating, but I guess it could also be about the practicality of cooking healthy food too as someone else pointed out. I'm not slandering poor people as fat and stupid, I'm just saying I don't think it's an affordability issue.

rjsterry

HaydenM wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

If you were never taught it at home or school then why would you know?

Maybe because you are fat and wheezing and feel body conscious, or because the doctor told you that you could do to lose a few, so you think to yourself, "maybe I should cut back on the chippy, I know, I'll google healthy food and see what comes up."

But that was my point that I don't think people are body conscious these days because the majority are overweight anyway, so there is no shame in it.

Are you assuming or suggesting that this type of 'poor' person can never change unless they are forced to?

Well, clearly people people struggle or don't want to change or they would. My point is that I think it's an educational issue in terms of valuing healthy eating, but I guess it could also be about the practicality of cooking healthy food too as someone else pointed out. I'm not slandering poor people as fat and stupid, I'm just saying I don't think it's an affordability issue.

Or maybe not only an affordability issue. If it was one simple issue, it would already have been solved.

One thing's for sure, the solution doesn't lie in self-righteous moralising. That has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective against health problems.

craigus89

HaydenM wrote:

Well, clearly people people struggle or don't want to change or they would. My point is that I think it's an educational issue in terms of valuing healthy eating, but I guess it could also be about the practicality of cooking healthy food too as someone else pointed out. I'm not slandering poor people as fat and stupid, I'm just saying I don't think it's an affordability issue.

Then I think we are saying the same thing. It really goads me when obesity is blamed on peoples financial situation or level of education. There is a lot society could do to help those with less means, but giving them an excuse for being overweight and unhealthy is not beneficial for anyone.

Tashman

I eat cos I like it. I have a degree in Exercise & Health and Food Science. I'm 6'2" 16 1/2 Stone (or 1m87 105kg). I know I'm obese, I have all the tools to do something about it, but I don't. I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it. I have in the past got down to 15st but over time it has crept up again.
There's no simple answer to any of it.

craigus89

Tashman wrote:

I eat cos I like it. I have a degree in Exercise & Health and Food Science. I'm 6'2" 16 1/2 Stone (or 1m87 105kg). I know I'm obese, I have all the tools to do something about it, but I don't. I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it. I have in the past got down to 15st but over time it has crept up again.
There's no simple answer to any of it.

The simple answer is in your post.

I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it.

It's self control. Simple.

Tashman

Craigus89 wrote:

Tashman wrote:

I eat cos I like it. I have a degree in Exercise & Health and Food Science. I'm 6'2" 16 1/2 Stone (or 1m87 105kg). I know I'm obese, I have all the tools to do something about it, but I don't. I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it. I have in the past got down to 15st but over time it has crept up again.
There's no simple answer to any of it.

The simple answer is in your post.

I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it.

It's self control. Simple.

I'm well aware of that. I just don't care enough which isn't simple.

john80

Much as the poor/lazy bashing has some humour in it if you are expecting the education system to sort our peoples chef skills based on an hour every couple of weeks for a couple of years in first and second year of a Scottish high school then you are probably on a hiding to nothing. This is before we go into the nutritional advice that would make a health difference. Why can I cook and make some reasonable decisions about what I put in my mouth?

- I know people that can cook and they have either cooked for me or shown me how to do it.
- I go to restaurants where I order something, like it then try to emulate this at home thus increasing my range of foods.
- I have a family so eating out or takeaway would be pretty expensive and I don't want the kids fat or dead.
- I live in a rural area so we are not well provided by take away shops.
- I have the free time and desire to eat nice food to cook from scratch.

So yes poverty plays a big part in this and it is not always because they are feckless and lazy. Often it is a lack of knowledge and a support network of equally unknowledgeable people to lend a hand.

dinyull

I know I'm obese, I have all the tools to do something about it, but I don't. I find it too simple to just eat if I feel like it.

Don't forget laziness.

rjsterry

Craigus89 wrote:

Simple.

No. It's simplistic. There's a difference.

Unless you were using the other meaning of simple.

haydenm

rjsterry wrote:

*Snip*
Or maybe not only an affordability issue. If it was one simple issue, it would already have been solved.

One thing's for sure, the solution doesn't lie in self-righteous moralising. That has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective against health problems.

Good point, as you say, the cost of cooking (and probably time to cook) would be a factor if you are in a low income household. I agree on the moralising point too, although they've tried it with smoking (Although I'd guess the impending threat of cancer has slowed the rate of uptake). Interestingly, smoking is higher in poorer people too and no one is saying it's because fags are cheap. I think it's possibly more cultural

Craigus89 wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

Well, clearly people people struggle or don't want to change or they would. My point is that I think it's an educational issue in terms of valuing healthy eating, but I guess it could also be about the practicality of cooking healthy food too as someone else pointed out. I'm not slandering poor people as fat and stupid, I'm just saying I don't think it's an affordability issue.

Then I think we are saying the same thing. It really goads me when obesity is blamed on peoples financial situation or level of education. There is a lot society could do to help those with less means, but giving them an excuse for being overweight and unhealthy is not beneficial for anyone.

Agreed, I mean education in terms of knowledge rather than formal qualifications. It's hard to see where cultural issues become knowledge/education issues. I work with a guy who doesn't know what a calorie is, he has a degree...

craigus89

rjsterry wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Simple.

No. It's simplistic. There's a difference.

Unless you were using the other meaning of simple.

No. It's simple. I was quoting Tashman who says he has a degree in Exercise & Health and Food Science.

You can't get much more simple.

Losing weight and being healthy is not out of reach for anyone. Other factors may make that more challenging admittedly, there may be cultural or societal reasons why people don't look after themselves. But the solution is a simple one.

Smoking has been mentioned. If you go to the docs and he says you need to stop smoking, the solution is a simple one: Stop smoking. You can't just say that is a simplistic solution because it may be difficult for someone to achieve it. The solution is still simple, achieving it may be complicated, but that doesn't make the solution simplistic. Unless I don't have a grasp on the language I'm using!?

haydenm

Craigus89 wrote:

Smoking has been mentioned. If you go to the docs and he says you need to stop smoking, the solution is a simple one: Stop smoking. You can't just say that is a simplistic solution because it may be difficult for someone to achieve it. The solution is still simple, achieving it may be complicated, but that doesn't make the solution simplistic. Unless I don't have a grasp on the language I'm using!?

As a slight aside to the debate, it's an interesting parallel with smoking. I think it's more simple as you can live without smoking unlike food so it should be in theory easier to kick the addiction, and it only has one form ie 'cigarettes'. I think it's probably unlikely but it would be interesting to see a future where unhealthy diet/lifestyle was seen in the same way as smoking.

Imagine trying to get people to give up drug addiction but they had to keep taking a small amount to sustain life

pblakeney

Eat less sh!t, move more. It really is that simple. And people know it.
They just can't be bothered in the majority of cases. Getting the motivation may be more problematic...

lesfirth

PBlakeney wrote:

Eat less sh!t, move more. It really is that simple. And people know it.
They just can't be bothered in the majority of cases. Getting the motivation may be more problematic...

As above. There is so much about it in the media it is impossible for obese people not to know why they are fat. When you see them at the supermarket checkout they invariably have a trolley full of high calorie crap. You don't have to eat less to lose weight ,just stop eating the sh1t as Blakeney puts it. When you see weight loss programs on TV going to a gym always comes into it. Going to a gym is good for your health and you will feel better but if you are obese it will make next to no difference to your weight. Telling overweight people that they have to go to a gym does more harm than good.

After that little rant I am going to have lunch. I would love a pizza but ...

Stevo_666

my grandad's bike wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

We're all going to Rotherham...

Should be a Macc Lads song title that.

Is it close to Blackpool?

rjsterry

Craigus89 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Simple.

No. It's simplistic. There's a difference.

Unless you were using the other meaning of simple.

No. It's simple. I was quoting Tashman who says he has a degree in Exercise & Health and Food Science.

You can't get much more simple.

Losing weight and being healthy is not out of reach for anyone. Other factors may make that more challenging admittedly, there may be cultural or societal reasons why people don't look after themselves. But the solution is a simple one.

Smoking has been mentioned. If you go to the docs and he says you need to stop smoking, the solution is a simple one: Stop smoking. You can't just say that is a simplistic solution because it may be difficult for someone to achieve it. The solution is still simple, achieving it may be complicated, but that doesn't make the solution simplistic. Unless I don't have a grasp on the language I'm using!?

I briefly worked in the local hospital as a student holiday job; I was frequently assigned to the cardio-pulmonary ward which was full of people gasping out their last days, mostly due to smoking. Most of the nurses on that ward smoked. Sure you can write a 'solution' in a few simple words but it is not really a solution. It is simplistic to suggest that people should 'just stop smoking'. It took decades of government propaganda and steadily tightening legislation, and the invention of vaping to make a serious dent in smoking and still people do it.

my_grandadʹs_bike

Stevo 666 wrote:

my grandad's bike wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

We're all going to Rotherham...

Should be a Macc Lads song title that.

Is it close to Blackpool?

I believe the obesity demographics are very similar.

craigus89

rjsterry wrote:

I briefly worked in the local hospital as a student holiday job; I was frequently assigned to the cardio-pulmonary ward which was full of people gasping out their last days, mostly due to smoking. Most of the nurses on that ward smoked. Sure you can write a 'solution' in a few simple words but it is not really a solution. It is simplistic to suggest that people should 'just stop smoking'. It took decades of government propaganda and steadily tightening legislation, and the invention of vaping to make a serious dent in smoking and still people do it.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but 'just stop smoking' IS the solution. The situation you describe is not a lack of education on the nurses part. Smoking makes them feel good. They know it's bad for them. They do it anyway because they lack self control, or they just don't care. There is no lack of education.

I'm not sure where you are coming down on this argument, do you not agree that self control is the main problem for people? Or are you saying that because society makes it difficult for them that we can't blame them and that self control is a trait that only a blessed few have?

bristolpete

Me today on bike. 42 miles in 2 hrs 5 mins @ 47 years old.

Massive, overtly fat guy in van 2 minutes from my home at end of ride "get on the cycle path you c**t"

Me "Am I actually doing you any harm?"

Massive fat guy "......"

Me "Do one"

People need to look at themselves. He had more chins than a chinese phonebook.

Vino'sGhost

bristolpete wrote:

Me today on bike. 42 miles in 2 hrs 5 mins @ 47 years old.

Massive, overtly fat guy in van 2 minutes from my home at end of ride "get on the cycle path you c**t"

Me "Am I actually doing you any harm?"

Massive fat guy "......"

Me "Do one"

People need to look at themselves. He had more chins than a chinese phonebook.

thats a bit chinist and fatist

rjsterry

Craigus89 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I briefly worked in the local hospital as a student holiday job; I was frequently assigned to the cardio-pulmonary ward which was full of people gasping out their last days, mostly due to smoking. Most of the nurses on that ward smoked. Sure you can write a 'solution' in a few simple words but it is not really a solution. It is simplistic to suggest that people should 'just stop smoking'. It took decades of government propaganda and steadily tightening legislation, and the invention of vaping to make a serious dent in smoking and still people do it.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but 'just stop smoking' IS the solution. The situation you describe is not a lack of education on the nurses part. Smoking makes them feel good. They know it's bad for them. They do it anyway because they lack self control, or they just don't care. There is no lack of education.

I'm not sure where you are coming down on this argument, do you not agree that self control is the main problem for people? Or are you saying that because society makes it difficult for them that we can't blame them and that self control is a trait that only a blessed few have?

No I don't agree that 'self control' - whatever the hell that is - is the main problem. You are approaching this as though people make a rational decision to smoke or eat badly. The craving for nicotine, alcohol, sugar or any other drug is not rational.

And even if it were, what use would that be? How do you grant greater self control to people who lack it? As a public health strategy it doesn't work as has been proven before with moralistic campaigns to combat alcoholism, unwanted pregnancies and STIs. So it's not a solution, it is simply identifying the problem and possibly giving the identifier some sense of moral superiority.

bompington

Recommendation for the "really, they should just be more disciplined like me" brigade:

read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt.

A lot of evidence and explanation to show that far less of our decisions are made from pure rationality than we like to think.
Yes, including you and me.

I'm a bit amazed at how many people here - most of whom, I suspect, would identify as far less right wing than me - are happy to assume that the things that tend to typify poor people's behaviour are due to their being intellectually and/or morally defective.