Campagnolo square taper BB fits one side but not the other ...

bice
bice Posts: 772
edited November 2018 in Workshop
I have just been trying to fit a Campagnolo Centaur 111mm bottom bracket on an Italian steel frame.

It has a Chorus 102mm BB with Record cranks (53,39).

The Campagnolo Centaur 111mm is supposedly the correct fit.

On the drive side the cup would not thread but went all the way in. On the off-side, the thread worked OK.

I did not persist because this was pointless. The size of the BB is supposedly exactly the same as the Chorus, but clearly isn't.

It is not as though it didn't-quite-fit. It was way off.

So, it is back to the Chorus and the standard double for me.

Anyone got any thoughts.

See below. I seem to have bought through Wiggle an English BB but with Italian packaging:

44611906904_035506e6a7_b.jpg
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Comments

  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Your explanation is not clear. It did not thread but went on all the way can mean the cup are British thread.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Your explanation is not clear. It did not thread but went on all the way can mean the cup are British thread.

    In that case, it must be mixed: the drive side does not thread at all but goes all the way in.

    The off-side threads fine.

    It was bought as an Italian thread, and suggests that on the box.

    But if it is English ... how come it threads OK on the problematical non-drive side?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    This IS an English thread, 68mm shell BB, even though I bought it as Italian thread and that's what it says on the packaging.

    English BBs thread to the left on the drive side: threading this on my finger nail it is threading to the left.

    The non-drive side in both Italian and English BBs thread to the right.

    The curiosity here is that this BB does actually thread on the non-drive side, while the drive side is completely loose.

    The shell size of Italian needs to be 70mm.
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    If I interpret the OP correctly he is trying to fit a cartridge BB and the internal diameter of the BB shell seems oversized permitting the drive side BB lockring to slide in without the threads engaging??
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Svetty wrote:
    If I interpret the OP correctly he is trying to fit a cartridge BB and the internal diameter of the BB shell seems oversized permitting the drive side BB lockring to slide in without the threads engaging??

    This is correct.

    The thread of the drive side threads to the left. I appear to have been sold an English thread BB, even though the packaging from Wiggle says Italian. I will post a pic of the package. (But I bought it a year ago for a different bike and have not tried to use it until now.)
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    bice wrote:
    Svetty wrote:
    If I interpret the OP correctly he is trying to fit a cartridge BB and the internal diameter of the BB shell seems oversized permitting the drive side BB lockring to slide in without the threads engaging??

    This is correct.

    The thread of the drive side threads to the left. I appear to have been sold an English thread BB, even though the packaging from Wiggle says Italian. I will post a pic of the package. (But I bought it a year ago for a different bike and have not tried to use it until now.)

    Even if you have the wrong threaded BB you shouldn't be able to slide the shell into the frame?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    English BB shells are 68mm and Italian 70mm, so the English one in an Italian bike, which is what I have, will pass through the threads.

    Here is the BB and packaging. (I did not know that 36 x 24 also appears on English BBs)

    44611906904_035506e6a7_b.jpg
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    It doesn't. This is a BSA Centaur BB:

    campagnolo-centaur-bottom-bracket-115-5mm-bsa-triple-8032758973826-3-l.jpg

    BSA is 1.370" X 24 tpi.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    ETA the 68mm refers to the shell width, not the diameter. The 36 (mm) or 1.370 (inch) measurement is the thread diameter. BSA is slightly smaller than ITA (34.8mm rather than 36mm) so yes, it will slide in. Looks like you have a mislabelled DS cup if the NDS works properly. Campag should replace it under warranty, even if it's over a year old, since this is evidently a manufacturing defect. Use a caliper to measure the OD of the thread if you want to confirm it's the cup, not your BB shell.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    TBH in spite of the time elapsed Wiggle should replace it with the correct thing since they (Campag) have clearly cocked up somehow. It's no different to any other warranty claim surely?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    keef66 wrote:
    TBH in spite of the time elapsed Wiggle should replace it with the correct thing since they (Campag) have clearly cocked up somehow. It's no different to any other warranty claim surely?

    Well, I have emailed Wiggle, asking for it to be replaced.

    I will post the result.

    Is it certain that 36 x 24T only appears on Italian BBs? A major error, if so.

    By the way, there is nothing wrong with the BB cup on the frame and the Chorus BB has gone back in perfectly happily.

    The annoying thing is I have two more Italian thread cup-and-cone BBs, but with Shimano axles and the wrong length even for mixing (which I don't want to do).
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    I love BB issues.

    In my (reasonable) experience, confusion is often cleared with the aid of a Vernier.

    For 99.99% of bike related issues a basic model is more than good enough and can be had for £15
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Here's my reply from Wiggle. Well, a year is pretty good for a return policy. I am a month out:

    Thanks for getting in touch regarding order 6226843773, sorry to hear of the issue you're experiencing.

    I can confirm that we have a 365 day return policy on all unwanted items (excluding nutrition). Unfortunately as you purchased the bottom bracket over a year ago, you would be unable to return this back to us.

    For more information on our returns policy, please see the link below;

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h/option/returns-uk

    Sorry we are unable to assist you further, have a nice day.
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Is the BB incorrectly packaged though? That might change things a bit I would have thought even if you are out of the returns period?
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    bice wrote:
    Here's my reply from Wiggle. Well, a year is pretty good for a return policy. I am a month out:

    Thanks for getting in touch regarding order 6226843773, sorry to hear of the issue you're experiencing.

    I can confirm that we have a 365 day return policy on all unwanted items (excluding nutrition). Unfortunately as you purchased the bottom bracket over a year ago, you would be unable to return this back to us.

    For more information on our returns policy, please see the link below;

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h/option/returns-uk

    Sorry we are unable to assist you further, have a nice day.

    You’re not wanting to return an unwanted item. You are raising a warranty claim having just discovered the item you bought in good faith is defective having been supplied with mismatched / possibly wrongly marked cups. The thing they sold you is not as described
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    pics of both cups please. measurew the id of you sheel and the od of the cups please.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    So for clarity:

    The pic you supply shows the right, drive side cup, which is marked 36 x 24T.
    This denotes Italian sizing.
    This is the same cup that you say pushes in, but doesn't engage the threads in the right, drive side of your Italian sized BB shell.

    The only possible explanation is as 946Cup suggests: Campagnolo have stamped a BSA cup as Italian. Your observation about the incompatible direction of the threads would appear to confirm that. Can't see how Wiggle can refuse to refund / replace in the circumstances.

    Academic, but I'm assuming that the Left, non-drive side cup, which does thread normally into your BB shell, is also stamped LEFT / 36 x 24T as it should be for an Italian BB?
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    edited October 2018
    I think this is quite an interesting thread, in fact.

    Wiggle has agreed to refund the bottom bracket, which is good of them given that it is more than their 365 days return policy (below).

    But this is perplexing.

    I think this bottom bracket is a genuine case of a 68mm Campagnolo English BB wrongly stamped Italian and supplied with Italian left shell (which just pulls off) and Italian BB packaging.

    Look at the picture below of the threads, which I have put on a newspaper to demonstrate that it is not reversed:

    44448977865_72dc772fd5_z.jpg

    It is the right hand cup and it tightens to the left. ie it is for an English frame. In my Italian frame the BB just went straight through the frame and hung loose.

    Now below is the left hand cup. It is marked 36 x 24, for Italian threads. It fitted my bike's left side perfectly:

    31487783658_9e4573f8b8_z.jpg

    At bottom, my bike rebuilt with the Chorus 102mm cartridge BB back in the frame (it fits perfectly):

    45312538392_263b922eef.jpg

    I am sceptical about these Centaur cartridge BBs after this.

    Fortunately, I have found a NOS 111mm Athena spindle on eBay in Poland for £12. I have two Italian thread cup and cone BBs (with wrong spindle lengths), so I will try to get on with one of those instead.

    The whole exercise here is to replace the standard double 53-39, with an incredibly expensive brand spanking NOS Record triple 53-42-30. It does not look quite as cool as a standard double, but it won't be discordant. (Can't see what the problem is, aesthetically, with triples on modern cranks as you can't often see them anyway.)

    The idea is that this will make this bike less tiring on Audax, distance riding. And I am getting on.

    Wiggle emailed earlier to say:

    Thank you for your email.

    We have looked into this further for you and on this occasion as a gesture of good will, we are happy to accept this back as a return.

    Please return the item back to us for a full refund and if you wish to purchase another bottom bracket, you can do so and I am happy to honour any price changes.

    To return an item to us you’ll need to follow the link below, click ‘Return Item’ next to the image of the product you’re returning, complete a return form and include it in your parcel when you return it to us:

    https://www.wiggle.co.uk/secure/order/CustomerOrders

    We cannot offer a refund as we do not offer exchanges.

    You can see our full returns procedure by following the link below:

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h/option/returns-uk

    I hope this helps, have a great day!
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Excellent! Go Wiggle! Blame Campag!

    And I'm with you on the triple. I have a 5703 groupset on my carbon bike and now I'm the wrong side of 60 I'm keeping it for as long as I can still pedal. I've ridden hundreds of miles with my son and he was genuinely surprised when I told him I had a third, 30T chainring which was why I was spinning up hills he was grunting his way up. And he's even ridden the bike a couple of times :D
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    nothing wrong with a centaur BB. Since you have not measured anything no one can say exactly whats wrong.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,321
    keef66 wrote:
    And he's even ridden the bike a couple of times :D

    :D

    The yoof of today :roll:

    What a curious thread (literally). I've never had a problem with Campag bits in over 24 years since I saw the lig... er, I mean converted.

    The new(ish) thing is 'super compact' which almost totally negates triples.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... ing-308008
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    Pinno wrote:
    keef66 wrote:
    And he's even ridden the bike a couple of times :D

    :D

    The yoof of today :roll:

    What a curious thread (literally). I've never had a problem with Campag bits in over 24 years since I saw the lig... er, I mean converted.

    The new(ish) thing is 'super compact' which almost totally negates triples.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... ing-308008

    They look good, for a new bike. Not this one.

    I would be interested, but would want to try before buying compacts of any type.

    With a Campag triple I know what I am getting, even if the gearing is too high than ideal. There are no easy compact solutions for bikes of this sort.
  • bice
    bice Posts: 772
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    nothing wrong with a centaur BB. Since you have not measured anything no one can say exactly whats wrong.


    No Vernier. Sorry. But one bottom bracket (my old Chorus 102 mm) fits fine; the Centaur goes straight through the frame on drive side; and is fine on non-drive side. So something is amiss here, and it is not the bike.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,321
    For some inexplicable reason, it seems that you had been supplied a centaur BB with one English threaded cup and one Italian one. Simple. Rare too, I expect.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Pinno wrote:
    For some inexplicable reason, it seems that you had been supplied a centaur BB with one English threaded cup and one Italian one. Simple. Rare too, I expect.

    It's the fact that the English threaded cup is marked as Italian which makes it harder to understand, and hopefully rarer still...
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    edited October 2018
    Pinno wrote:
    The new(ish) thing is 'super compact' which almost totally negates triples.

    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... ing-308008

    I've been reading avidly about them. I've already moved to a 46/36 CX chainset on my winter bike, and really love it for the 99% gently undulating riding I do. Only occasionally do I wish for a lower granny gear on a particularly steep hill. At the top end I never feel I need a taller gear than 46 x 12. (and on the triple I find I spend nearly all of my time in the 39T ring anyway)
    A 46/32 chainset paired with R7000 shifters and mechs would give me a cost-effective upgrade to 11 speed and under bar-tape cable routing, and with the right cassette I could have an even lower bail-out gear than the current 30 x 27 I have with the triple. .

    I do like the look of that Praxis chainset too...
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Look this looks like the drive side cup is marked up wrong. On the other hand if youve not measured it you wont know.

    Get a vernier, theyre useful for allsorts of bike tasks and very cheap. itallian thread is 36mm x24tpi. if you dont have a vernier but have a thread gauge see if it fits. If the thread gauge is metric and it fits then its not an English version. but its easier to measure.

    you could measure your frame (on both sides of the bottom bracket) and also its width. Italian is usually 70mm and English/ BSA 68mm

    Then youd know exactly what you need and what youve got.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Look this looks like the drive side cup is marked up wrong. On the other hand if youve not measured it you wont know.

    Get a vernier, theyre useful for allsorts of bike tasks and very cheap. itallian thread is 36mm x24tpi. if you dont have a vernier but have a thread gauge see if it fits. If the thread gauge is metric and it fits then its not an English version. but its easier to measure.

    you could measure your frame (on both sides of the bottom bracket) and also its width. Italian is usually 70mm and English/ BSA 68mm

    Then youd know exactly what you need and what youve got.

    This is all academic now; Wiggle have agreed to take it back and refund him. A thread gauge wouldn't have helped differentiate BSA and Italian since they are both 24 TPI. A cheap digital caliper would have been handy though
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    keef66 wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Look this looks like the drive side cup is marked up wrong. On the other hand if youve not measured it you wont know.

    Get a vernier, theyre useful for allsorts of bike tasks and very cheap. itallian thread is 36mm x24tpi. if you dont have a vernier but have a thread gauge see if it fits. If the thread gauge is metric and it fits then its not an English version. but its easier to measure.

    you could measure your frame (on both sides of the bottom bracket) and also its width. Italian is usually 70mm and English/ BSA 68mm

    Then youd know exactly what you need and what youve got.

    This is all academic now; Wiggle have agreed to take it back and refund him. A thread gauge wouldn't have helped differentiate BSA and Italian since they are both 24 TPI. A cheap digital caliper would have been handy though

    thats true in my mind i was thinking of Whitworth thread angle of 55deg
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    thats true in my mind i was thinking of Whitworth thread angle of 55deg

    How nostalgic! Proper engineering back in the day when we still had an empire! :D

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