Squealing Ultegra disc brakes
Comments
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I had exactly the same problem, I went through many sets of pads, took it to two bike shops who failed to diagnose the problem, one told me to use bigger rotors and finned pads, so I changed to bigger rotors and finned pads, next ride ear splitting squealing. This went on for months, in the end I figured out that it could only be the calipers leaking. So I tested them, I took the pads out, put the yellow bleed block in with tissue wrapped round it. Left the brakes on overnight by tieing elastic band round the lever, came to it the following morning and the tissue was soiled with brake fluid.
Replaced both caliper, never had a squeal since. I would bet this is exactly your problem, it drove me nuts for months.0 -
I think Plodder may have hit the nail on the head. Do the calipers have the ceramic pistons? I've heard a couple of times about them cracking and this happening.
As the problem started then I initially wondered if drilling the pin out was allowing a bit of movement, but if that was the case it would happen every ride. So it sounds like a glazing or contamination issue. What did the bike shop that drilled the pin out use to push the pistons back when they replaced the pads?0 -
Yeah, given the brakes aren't biting, slow leak of hydraulic fluid seems most plausible, particularly given that the problem emerges over time.
Are both front and rear giving you a problem?
Given you can buy a tiagra caliper for sod all (and I can't envisage any obvious way for it to be worse than the ultegra caliper) you might as well get one and give it a go eg- https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ountry=1900 -
Hi symptoms are so like mine I can almost guarantee it's the issue, first ride fine as the pads are new, then leave the bike overnight fluid leaks through next ride horrendous squealing. Less than 12 months old should be covered by warranty you would hope. It's such a relief when you sort it, I put two new calipers on cost me £80 best money I've spent, and you get new pads with calipers which themselves cost £20 a pair.0
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I've just done as Plodder recommended and put the brake block and tissue in. A leaky caliper would definitely answer why I have all the symptoms of contamination without anything external having caused it! I've got to the stage where I would be happy to find the calipers leaking even though it means new ones, just so that it's fixed! Nothing worse than watching the end of the summer days while stuck inside on the turbo...0
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Whilst it could be a warranty issue I think it may be muddied by having had the pads replaced, you could ask the shop that did the work but I suspect they will deny any responsibility as it's very hard to prove. I know you haven't said you are going to claim off anyone but biting the bullet and getting it done will probably save you a lot of time and grief. Hope it does sort the issue for you.mlan wrote:I've got to the stage where I would be happy to find the calipers leaking even though it means new ones, just so that it's fixed!0 -
Mian, do keep us updated, it was a great relief when I found the cause of the problem. I replaced them myself piece of cake. Make sure the tissue is against the piston and when you inspect it don't expect it to be soaking with fluid but if it's like mine you will be able to see the outline of the piston with liquid visible on that outline.0
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Imposter wrote:Killerclown wrote:On my cars, I put Copper grease on the backs of the pads to stop squealing. I wouldn’t advise it on a bicycle, because the likelyhood of the copper grease ending up on the rotor / pad material is greater.
How would that stop the squealing, Nick?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lCT6mh2XPOM
This nice Irish man explains it.
Although he has got a death wish, only having the car up on a jack, not on a lift or at least axle stands
This American guy does a good job as well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtjnxpFRbU
And yes, I know this is for cars, not bikes.0 -
Killerclown wrote:Imposter wrote:Killerclown wrote:On my cars, I put Copper grease on the backs of the pads to stop squealing. I wouldn’t advise it on a bicycle, because the likelyhood of the copper grease ending up on the rotor / pad material is greater.
How would that stop the squealing, Nick?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lCT6mh2XPOM
This nice Irish man explains it.
Although he has got a death wish, only having the car up on a jack, not on a lift or at least axle stands
This American guy does a good job as well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtjnxpFRbU
And yes, I know this is for cars, not bikes.
So, to recap:
- The OP's question was 'how to stop squealing brakes' (on his bike).
- You replied with how you personally stop squealing brakes on cars, while recommending that the same method is not applied to bikes.
- Copper grease is used as an anti-seize compound, not as a lubricant. In that sense, both those videos show 'copper grease' being used incorrectly.
- None of this is helpful to the OP
- Your reputation for posting irrelevant and unhelpful information precedes you. Milemuncher, Bikergroveish, Bottom Briquettes and now 'Killerclown'. Same old nonsense though...0 -
HAHAHHA good spot imposter0
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Ye gods! I can't keep up with his constantly changing identity. It's like Catch Me If You Can but without the confidence trickery, forgery, or Mr DiCaprio's charm.
I've stopped using copper goo on the brakes on cars. Modern braking systems don't require it / manufacturers advise against it. And there are better things to lubricate the moving parts.
It's still a good anti-seize for pedal and BB threads on a bike though.
FWIW the description of the pattern of the OP's problems does indeed suggest leaking pistons / repeated overnight contamination. I'd be curious to know if the bike shop which removed the stuck pins did anything to the pistons / seals in the process0 -
keef66 wrote:Ye gods! I can't keep up with his constantly changing identity. It's like Catch Me If You Can but without the confidence trickery, forgery, or Mr DiCaprio's charm.
I've stopped using copper goo on the brakes on cars. Modern braking systems don't require it / manufacturers advise against it. And there are better things to lubricate the moving parts.
It's still a good anti-seize for pedal and BB threads on a bike though.
FWIW the description of the pattern of the OP's problems does indeed suggest leaking pistons / repeated overnight contamination. I'd be curious to know if the bike shop which removed the stuck pins did anything to the pistons / seals in the process
Given the quality of many bike shop mechanics I’ve come across I wouldn’t be surprised.0 -
Looks like Plodder nailed it. Left some tissue in all day and took it out to find a fairly clear two piston pattern of leakage. So glad to have finally found the problem - it's been driving me nuts for ages! Will look into warranty but if it will take a while I'm just gonna buy new ones.
Thanks for all the help!0 -
Sometimes the internet works0
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I love it when a plan comes together
Hopefully you can salvage the pads and rotors with fairy liquid and brake cleaner!
Dave0 -
HaydenM wrote:Franco di Banco wrote:My 105 discs have always squealed. Usually if I don't totally dry them off after a wet ride. They can also squeal if the get wet during a ride.
I live with it, but as I do a lot of riding on narrow country lanes a bit of squeal is useful as a warning to pedestrians!!!
I was going to say, having had discs on mtb and road for years, some bikes squeal and others don't, I just ignore it. The squealing is sometimes caused by pads vibrating in the calipers, some people suggest putting a very small amount of copper grease on the back of the pads between the piston and the pad but I haven't tried it and would hate for it to somehow contaminate the pad in use. What is concerning is that you say they are losing power rather than just noise? Might be piston seals leaking very slightly?
Imposter, I do like bashing him but it was actually me that first mentioned copper grease initially rather than BB/MM/KC, I have seen it recommended before but haven't tried it. The internationally renowned Halfords website suggests it for cars to stop brake squeal though...
I also suggested a correct diagnosis first because I am a genius (and have used disc brakes extensively)
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No help to the op but as a general comment on squealing discs and fixes from the automotive world, copper grease helps with vibration related squeals. It was certainly standard practice to put some on the back of car brake pads. The mechanics behind it should be the same with bicycle brakes, but I too would avoid it too due to the risk of contamination. Lockheed used to sell sticky pads that you could put on the back of pads that would dampen the vibration so reducing the squeal, not available now although some pads come with something on the back that serves a similar purpose. Again the theory is transferable although you would need something with heat resistant glue.HaydenM wrote:Imposter, I do like bashing him but it was actually me that first mentioned copper grease initially rather than BB/MM/KC, I have seen it recommended before but haven't tried it. The internationally renowned Halfords website suggests it for cars to stop brake squeal though...
Another thing that helped with squealing (automotive) brakes is the groove you get in some pads. Apparently it helped get rid of a build up of dust so reduced noise. Not sure if that would work on bicycles brakes.
The change to asbestos free pads in the automotive world caused problems with more noise. Doubt you can buy bicycle pads with asbestos in them as they would be illegal in most of the western world.0 -
HaydenM wrote:Imposter, I do like bashing him but it was actually me that first mentioned copper grease initially rather than BB/MM/KC, I have seen it recommended before but haven't tried it. The internationally renowned Halfords website suggests it for cars to stop brake squeal though...
I also suggested a correct diagnosis first because I am a genius (and have used disc brakes extensively)
Happy to concede all those points - even the genius one.. 0 -
Imposter wrote:HaydenM wrote:Imposter, I do like bashing him but it was actually me that first mentioned copper grease initially rather than BB/MM/KC, I have seen it recommended before but haven't tried it. The internationally renowned Halfords website suggests it for cars to stop brake squeal though...
I also suggested a correct diagnosis first because I am a genius (and have used disc brakes extensively)
Happy to concede all those points - even the genius one..
It's probably only people like me suggesting it time and time again on forums "I've heard it suggested, never tried it", I doubt anyone has tried it on bike brakes as it might lead to immediate death...0 -
[quote="Veronese68"
No help to the op but as a general comment on squealing discs and fixes from the automotive world, copper grease helps with vibration related squeals. It was certainly standard practice to put some on the back of car brake pads. Lockheed used to sell sticky pads that you could put on the back of pads that would dampen the vibration so reducing the squeal, not available now although some pads come with something on the back that serves a similar purpose.......[/quote]
OT, but curious... Faffing with cars I used copperslip on the backs of the pads for years. Partly because I'd been told it was a good thing, and once I had a tube I felt I should go on using it.
Now everything I read about vehicle disc brakes tells me not to. Some manufacturers supply 3 different kinds of goo with a caliper rebuild kit; something to lube the guide pins and their boots, a threadlock to keep them in place, and something else for the bits of the caliper which the ends of the pad backing plates are supposed to slide along. Never had a set of pads recommending anything copper based on the back, and seen several which have something stuck on the back already.
The makers of the alternatives say the copper 'grease' isn't a lubricant, attracts dirt, doesn't handle heat well, and can adversely affect ABS systems.
So is it obsolete as far as modern cars are concerned? And does it still have a place on classic cars?0 -
I only deal with classic car stuff, people still use it and we still sell it. Haven't done a back to back test so don't know how effective it is in reality.keef66 wrote:So is it obsolete as far as modern cars are concerned? And does it still have a place on classic cars?
The stuff on the back of modern car pads is probably like what Lockheed used to sell but pre-fitted.0 -
keef66 wrote:The makers of the alternatives say the copper 'grease' isn't a lubricant, attracts dirt, doesn't handle heat well, and can adversely affect ABS systems.
So is it obsolete as far as modern cars are concerned? And does it still have a place on classic cars?
It isn't a lubricant, and calling it a 'grease' simply perpetuates that misunderstanding, IMO. It is - and has only ever been - an 'anti-seize' compound. In other words, something you put between two surfaces to stop them from binding together through galvanic corrosion. On the other hand, if you want the two surfaces in question to move over each other, then obviously some kind of lubricant (ie an actual grease) is probably more appropriate.
Copper compound still has a place on any item that fits the above description, classic or not.0 -
Imposter wrote:keef66 wrote:The makers of the alternatives say the copper 'grease' isn't a lubricant, attracts dirt, doesn't handle heat well, and can adversely affect ABS systems.
So is it obsolete as far as modern cars are concerned? And does it still have a place on classic cars?
It isn't a lubricant, and calling it a 'grease' simply perpetuates that misunderstanding, IMO. It is - and has only ever been - an 'anti-seize' compound. In other words, something you put between two surfaces to stop them from binding together through galvanic corrosion. On the other hand, if you want the two surfaces in question to move over each other, then obviously some kind of lubricant (ie an actual grease) is probably more appropriate.
Copper compound still has a place on any item that fits the above description, classic or not.
In my opinion I think Copper Slip Anti Seize compound is just as valid today for motor vehicle applications as it ever was. It does what it says on the tin. It stops things seizing. Having worked on many cars most of my life if you ever have to change a set of brake pads that haven't been copper slipped and are seized into the caliper carriers you'll know about it. It is a lubricant too. However, unlike grease it is very stable at high temperatures and wont fling off or get washed away. The movement of brake pads in carriers is very small. Millimeters. Grease is used for stuff that slides lots e.g. bearings.
It has no place on a bicycle. Tried it on my MTB with disks to stop a shriek. Got into a horrible mess and trashed the pads. big mistake. Don't do it.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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We had new rear pads fitted last week at a nation wide garage and they used copper slip.
Dave0 -
Imposter wrote:It isn't a lubricant
Well, it is. Even the manufacturers refer to its lubricating qualities. A common definition of a lubricant is something that reduces friction and Copaslip definitely does that and is intended to do that.
Never tried it on bike disc brakes though as I don’t know if the squeal is caused by friction material to disc or pad backing to piston.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Glad you've arrived at a diagnosis. As someone who has yet to buy a disc braked bike, stories like this don't exactly encourage me to migrate from rim brakes but perhaps I am just a luddite?mlan wrote:Looks like Plodder nailed it. Left some tissue in all day and took it out to find a fairly clear two piston pattern of leakage. So glad to have finally found the problem - it's been driving me nuts for ages! Will look into warranty but if it will take a while I'm just gonna buy new ones.
Thanks for all the help!FFS! Harden up and grow a pair0 -
meanredspider wrote:Imposter wrote:It isn't a lubricant
Well, it is. Even the manufacturers refer to its lubricating qualities. A common definition of a lubricant is something that reduces friction and Copaslip definitely does that and is intended to do that.
I can't think of a single application for a 'proper' lubricating grease where I would be happy to use copper compound as a substitute, can you?
Lot's of things have 'lubricating' qualities, but that doesn't make them generally useful as lubricants. It's not a 'lubricant' in the sense that you wouldn't want to use it as a layer between bushings, or to pack bearings with. You know, typical 'lubricant' stuff. Incidentally, I just read the copaslip web page, and there does not seem to be any mention of 'lubrication'. Lots of talk about anti-seize though..0 -
Svetty wrote:
Glad you've arrived at a diagnosis. As someone who has yet to buy a disc braked bike, stories like this don't exactly encourage me to migrate from rim brakes but perhaps I am just a luddite?mlan wrote:Looks like Plodder nailed it. Left some tissue in all day and took it out to find a fairly clear two piston pattern of leakage. So glad to have finally found the problem - it's been driving me nuts for ages! Will look into warranty but if it will take a while I'm just gonna buy new ones.
Thanks for all the help!
You and me both. Maybe it's a learning curve thing but rim brakes have always been so easy to sort in the past. I'm certainly not rushing to replace my bikes.0 -
Imposter wrote:meanredspider wrote:Imposter wrote:It isn't a lubricant
Well, it is. Even the manufacturers refer to its lubricating qualities. A common definition of a lubricant is something that reduces friction and Copaslip definitely does that and is intended to do that.
I can't think of a single application for a 'proper' lubricating grease where I would be happy to use copper compound as a substitute, can you?
Lot's of things have 'lubricating' qualities, but that doesn't make them generally useful as lubricants. It's not a 'lubricant' in the sense that you wouldn't want to use it as a layer between bushings, or to pack bearings with. You know, typical 'lubricant' stuff. Incidentally, I just read the copaslip web page, and there does not seem to be any mention of 'lubrication'. Lots of talk about anti-seize though..
I think you have a pretty narrow definition of lubricant/lubrication.
This page https://www.molyslip.co.uk/products/ant ... /copaslip/ refers to easing assembly of tight-fitting components (that’s pretty much the definition of lubrication) and even has a table for correcting torque settings because of the lubricating properties.
I certainly have a tub of Copaslip that I’ve owned for about 20 years and originally bought for the rear of car brake pads. That I’ve had it that long shows it doesn’t have a lot of applications as I’ve pretty much continually restored and maintained elderly Alfa Romeos during that period.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:I think you have a pretty narrow definition of lubricant/lubrication.
Well, I'm certainly clear on the practical differences between when to use a 'lubricant' and when to use an 'anti-seize compound', if that's what you mean...0
