Change cassette or not...hills.

bsharp77

Hi everyone,

Looking for a bit of advice regarding cassette choice for my new favourite climb.
I've done it a couple of times now and absolutely love it. In the grand scheme of things its no monster, only around 8km in total with 4km averaging around 8%.

Im no racer, I just love cycling for fitness and try to improve myself if I can - I can get up the climb ok, gauging my effort so I don't blow up. I'm currently on a compact chainset using a 11-25 cassette. Im in the smallest gear as soon as the climb starts and I grind my way up (I can stay seated for most of it give or take a few spikes and corners that really ramp up).

My question is, is it better to keep the 25, which may force my legs to improve, or would I actually gain from having a 28 and trying to spin a bit more - is there an argument that I might actually be faster with an easier gear?

Any advice much appreciated - I'm not trying to rip up any trees or will never be the KOM, but its fun trying to improve myself as much as I can.

slowbike

On the basis that a cassette is a consumable - go for a larger one and see ... at least with a larger one you can click down a gear and force yourself to grind whilst still having a bailout gear.

imposter2.0

Using a 25 is not going to 'improve your legs' one way or the other. It doesn't work like that. If you can already get up the hill on a 25, then I see no reason to go lower.

Whether you may be faster in an easier gear is surely a moot point, given that you say you are only doing it for fitness, and presumably will still be improving anyway...

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Depends upon what sort of cadence you are "grinding" up that section in 34/25 and what ballpark cadence zone you produce your most sustainable power.

You might just about be able to fit an 11-30 and still use the short cage rear mech I presume the bike has, if the bike is 22-speed than you could go 11-32 or even 11-34 now in Shimano 105 8000 and above, but you may then need a medium cage mech, plus the chain may well need lengthening regardless.

bsharp77

Slowbike wrote:

On the basis that a cassette is a consumable - go for a larger one and see ... at least with a larger one you can click down a gear and force yourself to grind whilst still having a bailout gear.

Very good point.

Using a 25 is not going to 'improve your legs' one way or the other. It doesn't work like that. If you can already get up the hill on a 25, then I see no reason to go lower.

Whether you may be faster in an easier gear is surely a moot point, given that you say you are only doing it for fitness, and presumably will still be improving anyway...

Sorry, to clarify - I want to improve both myself and my times. While getting physically stronger will no doubt eventually make me faster, what I'm trying to ascertain is the most efficient way of making said gains.
I can get up it using the 25, but grinding at less than 50rpm most of the way is surely less than ideal?
There surely is a training difference between grinding at 50rpm or spinning slightly more at around 60-70rpm which I'm sure a 28 tooth cassette would allow me to do.

Im using 11 speed ultegra, so I think sticking a 28 cassette in there and giving it a go would be well worth it.
As mentioned, the 28 could be there for when its needed, with the option of continuing to grind if thats seen as a more efficient technique for certain parts of the climb.

Thanks everyone for the replies so far.

feelgoodlost

Buy an 11-28 and spin to win. As you get stronger you can drop down the gears to 'push on' up the climb, get out the saddle to give your legs and lower back a break when you need to, or you might even find on some days you feel stronger and can sit for the duration of the climb.

imposter2.0

bsharp77 wrote:

Sorry, to clarify - I want to improve both myself and my times. While getting physically stronger will no doubt eventually make me faster, what I'm trying to ascertain is the most efficient way of making said gains.

You won't be getting 'physically stronger' by using the 25 (or any other gear), is the point I was making. But you will get faster, obviously. The improvements you make will be to your aerobic capacity, rather than your physical strength.

bsharp77 wrote:

I can get up it using the 25, but grinding at less than 50rpm most of the way is surely less than ideal?

There isn't really an 'ideal' cadence, despite what some may say. 50rpm may or may not be ideal for you.

bsharp77 wrote:

There surely is a training difference between grinding at 50rpm or spinning slightly more at around 60-70rpm which I'm sure a 28 tooth cassette would allow me to do.

There will be a training difference, in the sense that you will become adapted to riding up the hill at 50rpm, as opposed to 60-70rpm or whatever. Whether that implies a training 'benefit' is a whole other ball game and largely depends on the kind of cadences that you personally are comfortable at. As your fitness improves, your cadence while on the 25 will increase anyway, as you become faster.

I'd be inclined to stick with the 25, but there is no detriment to having a 28, so no reason not to buy one. Just saying that the 'training benefits' of one cadence over another are very difficult to define.

photonic69

If you want to be fast up hills just look at Stage 13 of La Vuelta and see how Oscar Rodriguez just spun away from the following two in the last km of the race. Millar was commentating how much lower his cassette was to spin like that.
It worked for him and the likes of Froome too.

imposter2.0

PhotoNic69 wrote:

If you want to be fast up hills just look at Stage 13 of La Vuelta and see how Oscar Rodriguez just spun away from the following two in the last km of the race. Millar was commentating how much lower his cassette was to spin like that.
It worked for him and the likes of Froome too.

Nothing to do with Rodriguez' superior aerobic endurance & threshold then....all down to the cassette.??

lettingthedaysgoby

All depends on what works for you. Give it a try, nothing to lose.

photonic69

Imposter wrote:

Nothing to do with Rodriguez' superior aerobic endurance & threshold then....all down to the cassette.??

Well, all things being equal - in terms of his and Majka's and Teuns super athleticism compared to us mere mortals, then yes - it was the fact that he had lower gears that he could ride away from them. If you were to compare him to me then no, he'd ride awy from me even if he was on a fixie!

imposter2.0

PhotoNic69 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Nothing to do with Rodriguez' superior aerobic endurance & threshold then....all down to the cassette.??

Well, all things being equal - in terms of his and Majka's and Teuns super athleticism compared to us mere mortals, then yes - it was the fact that he had lower gears that he could ride away from them. If you were to compare him to me then no, he'd ride awy from me even if he was on a fixie!

If he rode away from them while increasing his cadence, then surely what he actually did was to increase his power output, rather than simply 'spin faster'..? It's a bit simplistic to say that he could only do this because he had lower gears...

sloppyschleckonds

The magic words here are 'aerobic capacity'

I'd go with Imposters advise

bsharp77

Thanks all for taking the time to reply.
Definitely looks like the best way forward is to stick a 28 on and see how it goes. As said, it can’t do any harm!

It will be interesting to try spinning a bit more in a lower gear versus the 50rpm grind to see which I’m more comfortable and most efficient with.

A 28 gives me that option while not really forfeiting anything at the other end.

As I said, I’ll never be the KOM, but it’s good fun trying these things and tinkering. Getting to the top always puts a massive smile on my face which I guess is the main thing.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to leave a comment.

Bottom briquettes

bsharp77 wrote:

Thanks all for taking the time to reply.
Definitely looks like the best way forward is to stick a 28 on and see how it goes. As said, it can’t do any harm!

It will be interesting to try spinning a bit more in a lower gear versus the 50rpm grind to see which I’m more comfortable and most efficient with.

A 28 gives me that option while not really forfeiting anything at the other end.

As I said, I’ll never be the KOM, but it’s good fun trying these things and tinkering. Getting to the top always puts a massive smile on my face which I guess is the main thing.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to leave a comment.

It’s not all about your cadence, it’s how much power you are producing at that cadence, and for how long you can sustain it. It’s no good spinning like a lunatic if you’re not producing the power. The fitter you get, the more power you will be able to produce at higher cadences. Aiming to produce your best power at higher cadences ( about 90 rpms ) has been proven scientifically to be the most efficient way. Get a 28 tooth sprocket, as it will allow you to get a higher cadence on the hills you currently ride, when your fitness allows it, you’ll be able to produce more power at that cadence, and hold it for longer. Power is the product of cadence and torque, so the harder you can press the pedals and the more of the pedal revolution you can apply that force for, the more power you produce at the given Cadence.

photonic69

OK I hear what you say about power output maki g you faster up hills but I believe that the gearing and cadence play a large part.
For instance- recently got a new bike with super compact (sub compact?) chainset with 48-32 rings. I'm now smashing all my previous PB's riding a bike that's a little heavier, more endurance oriented AND has mudguards fitted!! Unless my wife has been secretly doping me with EPO in my sleep then the only thing that has changed has been the gearing on my bike and I'm much faster now than I was.

imposter2.0

Bottom briquettes wrote:

Aiming to produce your best power at higher cadences ( about 90 rpms ) has been proven scientifically to be the most efficient way.

No it hasn't. You said this when you were called Milemuncher...and Bikergrovish...and now you are repeating the same bollox with your new username despite being called out on it (and being unable to substantiate it) many times before. Please link to the 'scientific proof'... :roll:

webboo

Imposter wrote:

Bottom briquettes wrote:

Aiming to produce your best power at higher cadences ( about 90 rpms ) has been proven scientifically to be the most efficient way.

No it hasn't. You said this when you were called Milemuncher...and Bikergrovish...and now you are repeating the same bollox with your new username despite being called out on it (and being unable to substantiate it) many times before. Please link to the 'scientific proof'... :roll:

Didn’t Milemuncher advocate we should all pedal at 30 revs a minute as it was all about torque. Anything above 60 revs he talked of your legs flapping about.

pblakeney

Webboo wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Bottom briquettes wrote:

Aiming to produce your best power at higher cadences ( about 90 rpms ) has been proven scientifically to be the most efficient way.

No it hasn't. You said this when you were called Milemuncher...and Bikergrovish...and now you are repeating the same bollox with your new username despite being called out on it (and being unable to substantiate it) many times before. Please link to the 'scientific proof'... :roll:

Didn’t Milemuncher advocate we should all pedal at 30 revs a minute as it was all about torque. Anything above 60 revs he talked of your legs flapping about.

This is true. And both arguments are flawed as everyone has different physiques.
For the OP, you can't use gears you haven't got. You decide.

dannbodge

I'd change to the 28.
Yes you can do it on the 25 but it's always nice to have another gear there if you need it.

I run a 28t and most days I can do all my local climbs in the 23/25T but every now and again I'm in the 28T (tired, windy or with slower people etc)

kingrollo

I would go for the 28

In either case you still have a whole bunch of gears to play with.

bsharp77

Thanks everyone.
28 ordered late last night, so will get it stuck on and have a crack at the hill at the weekend to see how it feels.

Appreciate all the replies.

InconveniencedBadger

Good decision and good luck!

funkydisciple

I’ve recently changed cassettes from 11-28 to 11-32. Apparently its a 10% difference when putting it in the lowest gear for the steepest hills i encounter. Doesn’t sound a lot but i’ve Got up the hills that I couldn’t previously. Got my mojo back when I couldn’t get up some of the hills on a 11-28 and now i can after a cassette change.

DeVlaeminck

Have a look at a gear calculator. If you are really grinding up at 50rpm on a 25 you are doing under 6mph on what you describe as a not a very steep gradient.

34*34 at 60rpm is under 5 mph, literally a brisk walking pace.

You've got the 28 now but unless you are doing loaded touring in the hills beyond a certain point I really don't think ever lower gears help. At those kind of power outputs you aren't putting big forces through the pedals so at 50-60rpm you aren't really grinding you are just turning he cranks over slowly with a little bit of resistance. It's different to a fit cyclist trying to sit and ride Hardknott Pass on a big gear when they really are applying a lot of force and it becomes inefficient, what is happening with the OP is he's getting out of puff and an easier gear is just letting him take it easier rather than app,ying the same power more efficiently - he'll actually be getting less fit with easier gears imo.

*I'm assuming it's a compact