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Play in Shimano 105 5800 bottom bracket

benws1benws1 Posts: 413
edited September 2018 in Workshop
Hello all.

My woes with my Cube Attain continue i'm afraid. I've noticed that the bottom bracket now has play in it (as seen by holding each crank and moving it side to side).

The bike I have is this one:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=uk

I have noticed an annoying clicking noise of late so thought I'd take a look at the bike. After trying the cranks for play, it seems there is indeed movement in the bottom bracket. I can move the cranks backwards and forwards a little when holding them.

I have spent the best part of an hour and a half tonight undoing the crank bolts, tightening the star nut thingy, tightening it all up and trying again. No matter what I do, I can't seem to eliminate the play. I got to a point where the cranks were so tight it was difficult to spin them and the bottom bracket still had play.

Anyhow, I've had enough of it now and thought I'd ask on here to see if I'm doing something wrong or if there is indeed a problem.

The bike is a year and a half old, but I have ridden it at most about 30 times. This doesn't seem a lot to cause issues with the BB.

Anyone have any ideas about that is going on with it? I haven't a clue what sort of BB it is. I think it is press fit though as I can't see any threads for the BB. Thanks.
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Posts

  • me-109me-109 Posts: 1,426
    Bottom brackets are disposable items and generally not servicable these days. They run cartridge bearings, not cup-and-cone. Replace.
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Ok. Seems a bit naff that it's only lasted around 30 bike rides though and has only been out in fine weather.

    Just a side note, I finally had enough and took the whole thing apart just now. Well, the BB is still in the shell. When I took the non drive side off, a ring of plastic fell off. Initially I thought this was a seal or something, but it looks like it's the collar off the BB plastic. It's just disintegrated. The non drive side is very wobbly when I stuck my finger in and manipulated it. I guess that is the issue.

    Drive side seems ok and has the plastic collar around the BB shell.

    The BB is a Shimano BB-RS500-PB. Anyone know where I can get a replacement? Thanks.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    Any Hollowtech 2 BB will do - assuming you have the tool. If not might be easier to get your LBS to fit a new one. It's a 10 minute job so should be cheap and if you buy the BB from them they might even fit it for free.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Thanks.

    I've noticed that they are listed as Sora, Claris etc. Finding an exact replacement seems a nightmare. I'll look at more generic hollowtech 2's then.

    I guess as long as I have the correct size (I'll measure the BB width on my bike), I'm ok using any press fit one.

    I'll look at investing in the tool for the job. Park tool do various BB presses. I'm trying to learn as if go along to become more self sufficient. I'll have a crack at it myself. :)
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,748
    Any Shimano HT2 will fit.

    However if its moving side to side, why not just reset the preload on the bearings as that has to be below spec now, they may be fine, loosen the crank arm pinch bolts, tighten preload nut as required, retorque pinch bolts.
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    its farked, just replace with a dura ace one, cost less than £20 and youll never need to do it again
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    benws1 wrote:
    Thanks.

    I've noticed that they are listed as Sora, Claris etc. Finding an exact replacement seems a nightmare. I'll look at more generic hollowtech 2's then.

    I guess as long as I have the correct size (I'll measure the BB width on my bike), I'm ok using any press fit one.

    I'll look at investing in the tool for the job. Park tool do various BB presses. I'm trying to learn as if go along to become more self sufficient. I'll have a crack at it myself. :)

    OK, hadn't appreciated you had a pressfit BB - looks like it's BB86 or PF30 and not HT2. You have more options to consider although getting a straightforward press-fit bearing swap is the simplest. There some fancy after-market BB upgrades that might be worth considering. As you say you need to measure the shell width to determine which bearings you need.

    You can make a serviceable DIY bearing press with a length of threaded rod and some nuts and washers. Works just as well as the expensive Park Tool type.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    its farked, just replace with a dura ace one, cost less than £20 and youll never need to do it again

    Could you possibly point me in the direction of one of these?

    Thanks.
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    The Rookie wrote:
    Any Shimano HT2 will fit.

    However if its moving side to side, why not just reset the preload on the bearings as that has to be below spec now, they may be fine, loosen the crank arm pinch bolts, tighten preload nut as required, retorque pinch bolts.

    I tried that. The thing still had play even with the preload star nut thing done up really tight (which made the pedals hard to turn).

    Then the BB fell apart when I took the crank off. :)
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    The Rookie wrote:
    Any Shimano HT2 will fit.

    However if its moving side to side, why not just reset the preload on the bearings as that has to be below spec now, they may be fine, loosen the crank arm pinch bolts, tighten preload nut as required, retorque pinch bolts.

    He said he'd tried all that to no avail. Which suggests to me that a bearing has failed, prematurely by the sound of it.

    Simplest solution is to replace it with a new one. The original appears to be Sora. The dearer ones may well be better sealed / longer lasting so I'd try a BB72 or BB92

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-bb71-ro ... m-bracket/

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-sm-bb92 ... m-bracket/

    (I know I'm only a sample of one, but the BB72 in my Scott is 5 years and thousands of miles old, and still smooth and silent. Previous experience with threaded Shimano BBs was that Ultegra outlasted 105)
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Svetty wrote:
    benws1 wrote:
    Thanks.

    I've noticed that they are listed as Sora, Claris etc. Finding an exact replacement seems a nightmare. I'll look at more generic hollowtech 2's then.

    I guess as long as I have the correct size (I'll measure the BB width on my bike), I'm ok using any press fit one.

    I'll look at investing in the tool for the job. Park tool do various BB presses. I'm trying to learn as if go along to become more self sufficient. I'll have a crack at it myself. :)

    OK, hadn't appreciated you had a pressfit BB - looks like it's BB86 or PF30 and not HT2. You have more options to consider although getting a straightforward press-fit bearing swap is the simplest. There some fancy after-market BB upgrades that might be worth considering. As you say you need to measure the shell width to determine which bearings you need.

    You can make a serviceable DIY bearing press with a length of threaded rod and some nuts and washers. Works just as well as the expensive Park Tool type.

    Thanks.

    As above, can you point me in the direction of what I need to look for BB wise?

    I'm willing to invest in the tools to do it myself too.
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    keef66 wrote:
    The Rookie wrote:
    Any Shimano HT2 will fit.

    However if its moving side to side, why not just reset the preload on the bearings as that has to be below spec now, they may be fine, loosen the crank arm pinch bolts, tighten preload nut as required, retorque pinch bolts.

    He said he'd tried all that to no avail. Which suggests to me that a bearing has failed, prematurely by the sound of it.

    Simplest solution is to replace it with a new one. The original appears to be Sora. The dearer ones may well be better sealed / longer lasting so I'd try a BB72 or BB92

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-bb71-ro ... m-bracket/

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-sm-bb92 ... m-bracket/

    (I know I'm only a sample of one, but the BB72 in my Scott is 5 years and thousands of miles old, and still smooth and silent. Previous experience with threaded Shimano BBs was that Ultegra outlasted 105)

    Thanks for the links.

    I didn't realise Shimano's numbering system wasn't based on the width of the BB shell. Quite confusing to start with. :)

    When I get my press and press the new BB in, is it worthwhile doing one side at a time? Or both at the same time? Thanks.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    The Shimano dealer manual shows both being done at the same time, which seems safest. Just need to make sure they are going in completely square*, and that the central plastic tube is installed in one cup and lined up with the other so you're not crushing it.

    *when I was pressing in the headset cups on my CR1 I failed to notice one was slightly skewed till it suddenly straightened up with a loud crack. Damn near fouled myself :shock: Thought I'd just broken my new bike.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    benws1 wrote:
    As above, can you point me in the direction of what I need to look for BB wise?

    I'm willing to invest in the tools to do it myself too.

    Not until we know which BB standard you have. It's likely to be either a BB86 (86mm wide) or a PF30 (68 or 73mm wide)
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I'm sure it'll be BB86 since he said the original is a BB-RS500-PB
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    keef66 wrote:
    I'm sure it'll be BB86 since he said the original is a BB-RS500-PB
    True. The ones you have linked to are fine - although I'd be tempted to get something like a Wheels Manufacturing threaded aftermarket BB to hopefully prevent further problems down the line

    https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Wheels ... ranks/EM28
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • CitizenLeeCitizenLee Posts: 2,227
    Once you figure out which BB you need, get yourself some Loctite 609 for when you reinstall it.

    Should help hold it in place and reduce any creaks.
    Current:
    NukeProof Mega FR 2012
    Cube NuRoad 2018
    Previous:
    2015 Genesis CdF 10, 2014 Cube Hyde Race, 2012 NS Traffic, 2007 Specialized SX Trail, 2005 Specialized Demo 8
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    CitizenLee wrote:
    Once you figure out which BB you need, get yourself some Loctite 609 for when you reinstall it.

    Should help hold it in place and reduce any creaks.

    I do recall a recent post about a creak on the DS downstroke. But maybe that was the first sign of the bearing giving up, and not the actual cups moving in the BB shell?

    Trouble is, with the Shimano press-fit BBs they say you shouldn't reinstall them once removed, so you can't fit it dry first and only resort to the loctite if it creaks.

    Although I know people who have successfully removed and refitted them...
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    keef66 wrote:
    CitizenLee wrote:
    Once you figure out which BB you need, get yourself some Loctite 609 for when you reinstall it.

    Should help hold it in place and reduce any creaks.

    I do recall a recent post about a creak on the DS downstroke. But maybe that was the first sign of the bearing giving up, and not the actual cups moving in the BB shell?

    Trouble is, with the Shimano press-fit BBs they say you shouldn't reinstall them once removed, so you can't fit it dry first and only resort to the loctite if it creaks.

    Although I know people who have successfully removed and refitted them...

    Yep, I posted last week about an annoying noise when pedalling. Looks like this is the culprit!

    On reflection, I think it's been buggered since I got the bike from new. I have had an annoying clicking/creaking sound from new. Took it back to the bike shop, they said nothing was wrong. I only rode it until August last year then put it in the garage. Got it back out less then a month ago, that's why it's had hardly any usage.

    I didn't have a good time with the bike shop when I bought the bike. It seems that this is another issue. Too late to go back now. Oh well. Parts to fix it ordered. Went with this BB in the end (BB71) and the shell is indeed 86.5 mm:

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-bb71-ro ... sku=231077

    Thanks again all. :)
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    benws1 wrote:
    keef66 wrote:
    CitizenLee wrote:
    Once you figure out which BB you need, get yourself some Loctite 609 for when you reinstall it.

    Should help hold it in place and reduce any creaks.

    I do recall a recent post about a creak on the DS downstroke. But maybe that was the first sign of the bearing giving up, and not the actual cups moving in the BB shell?

    Trouble is, with the Shimano press-fit BBs they say you shouldn't reinstall them once removed, so you can't fit it dry first and only resort to the loctite if it creaks.

    Although I know people who have successfully removed and refitted them...

    Yep, I posted last week about an annoying noise when pedalling. Looks like this is the culprit!

    On reflection, I think it's been buggered since I got the bike from new. I have had an annoying clicking/creaking sound from new. Took it back to the bike shop, they said nothing was wrong. I only rode it until August last year then put it in the garage. Got it back out less then a month ago, that's why it's had hardly any usage.

    I didn't have a good time with the bike shop when I bought the bike. It seems that this is another issue. Too late to go back now. Oh well. Parts to fix it ordered. Went with this BB in the end (BB71) and the shell is indeed 86.5 mm:

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-bb71-ro ... sku=231077

    Thanks again all. :)


    Nicely done have fun!

    In case you haven't yet got a press, I bought one of these recently and it comes with a drift suitable for every press-fit size I've come across. Its very good, well made and reasonably priced. you could also buy a drift set when it comes time and use it for replacing bearings in wheels or headsets since it has a standard half inch bar.

    I enjoy buying and collecting tools and I've got several presses. there is no need at all to go to the "professional" version of this which uses brass inserts in the handle for buttery smooth turning.

    https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Wheels ... -Tool/EUEM
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Thanks.

    I, errrm, went a bit mad and spent a lot of money on some tools from Park. Like you, I collect tools, so don't mind investing.

    Yes, I could have used a cheaper tool or made my own. However, I'm learning. I would like to be good at doing the job first before I experiment with things like home made tools.

    :)
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Attempted to fix this this afternoon. It went ok, I guess. Not bad for a first try.

    I managed to knock the old bearing out. Non drive side just fell out and drive side took a bit of whacking with a hammer and the removal tool.

    Used the press to get the new bearing in. Went ok. Only issue was the non drive side one could be pushed in by hand. Guess I need some loctite for that side if and when I do it again.

    Got the cranks on (non drive side fell out with the crank so had to hold it as I pushed the crank in). Tightened everything. Still play. Not as bad as before, but a slight little knock and movement. I was gutted to say the least.

    I loosened the crank pinch bolts and did up the plastic star nut thing tighter. It's still only hand tight. I seem terrible for not tightening things up enough. Too scared I'll break something. Did cranks pinch bolts up etc and the had gone. Woooo.

    I guess the only concern I have is I've done the plastic star nut up too tight. However, I got it to a point where it was tight by hand and pretty much all the play in the cranks had been removed. The cranks spin fine. Guess I couldn't do anything different. I haven't tightened it really, really hard, just tight. Not sure how to measure 1.5nm. :)

    Anyhow, will see how it goes. Did a quick test ride and there were no creaks or noises. Cranks still have no play in too.

    Thanks again for everyone's help. Hopefully I've done an ok job and the new BB will work for a whole. Must remember to order some loctite. :)
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Nicely done on the kit:)

    You definitely shouldn’t be able to push the cups into the frame with your fingers though
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Something seriously wrong if the NDS cup is such a loose fit in the B.B. shell. That could well be the reason the bearing failed prematurely. Suggest you contact Cube to see what they have to say about it. I would be wanting a new frame under warranty
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Thanks.

    I guess that is why I had to do the plastic star nut up a bit tight too.

    I'll give the shop I bought the bike from a ring tomorrow. Don't want to as they are utterly hopeless, but I don't have any other choice. I have called the bike the Friday afternoon one as I've had so many niggles with it.

    I did notice a lot of black dust and censored coming off the shell on the non drive side. And it looked like the material it is made of (I'm guessing carbon) is a little bit flaky inside.

    Will give them a call tomorrow. Thanks again.
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    I've managed to rescue most of the old bearing from the bin. On the left cup, the collar bit has completely disintegrated and that is what fell off when I took the cranks off the other day.

    Glad I found it as it may help me with explaining the situation I am in. Although all the shop have to do is take the cranks off and have a look for themselves. :)

    Off work tomorrow so that is handy to get this sorted.
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Interesting stuff, let us know how you get on:)
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    Thanks will do.

    Shop have it and have already raised a warranty claim with Cube.

    You have to love the shop attitude though. I don't think they believed me when I took the bike in, and the chap in there told me all Shimano press fit BB's are cheap sh*t and no wonder they fall apart. :)

    Funny that Cube supplied the bike with a similar BB.

    Speaking of which, I'm a BB down now. That's £18 and the fuel etc for today so far. Thanks Cube.
  • benws1benws1 Posts: 413
    After a lot of chasing, Cube have admitted my BB isn't to spec. Just awaiting the next step now.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    benws1 wrote:
    After a lot of chasing, Cube have admitted my BB isn't to spec. Just awaiting the next step now.

    Cautious optimism! Hopefully a replacement frame with a correctly sized BB shell...

    (Although I have heard of some manufacturers repairing frames by adding more material to a BB shell or bonding in an insert...)

    Either way, you should get one which will take and retain a press-fit BB correctly. Given what's happened Cube really ought to supply a new BB to go with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they 'forgot'

    Don't swallow the bike shop's BS about Shimano press-fit BBs. As I said earlier, mine's still smooth and silent after 5 years. I suspect yours failed early because of the sloppy BB shell.
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