End of Tour Team grades + Team of the Tour

13

Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Suggestion on the avondetappe that the only reason Poels would leave sky is to go for wins/leadership himself. (From him)
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Snap

    Thomas*>Dumolin>Froome

    (*insert track rider comment here)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    Poels is under contract at Sky next season. He'd be prohibitively expensive if you want him for next season, and Sky would almost certainly keep him to his contract if he was trying to move to the team of a direct rival.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,820
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Still blows me away that Dumolin and Froome over both the Giro and Tour are only 13 seconds apart.

    Means the Giro Tour is still attractive, which is a good thing
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    Rohan Dennis is 28 years old.
    All this talk of doing a Wiggins style conversion needs to come to fruition quickly. At 29 Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in the Tour. Dennis is a long way off that I'd say.

    Granted Geraint hadn't finished higher than 15th in a GT before this year, but he's been winning / contending for WT / HC stage races for 3-4 seasons now, as well as winning a WT 1 dayer and getting multiple top 10s in hard classics. He's one of the best all-rounders now along with Valverde, Kwiato etc.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    YorkshireRaw wrote:
    Rohan Dennis is 28 years old.
    All this talk of doing a Wiggins style conversion needs to come to fruition quickly. At 29 Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in the Tour. Dennis is a long way off that I'd say.

    Granted Geraint hadn't finished higher than 15th in a GT before this year, but he's been winning / contending for WT / HC stage races for 3-4 seasons now, as well as winning a WT 1 dayer and getting multiple top 10s in hard classics. He's one of the best all-rounders now along with Valverde, Kwiato etc.

    Dennis is currently in his second year of a four year transformation programme.
    In both Romandie and the Giro, this year, he showed significant improvement over the longer climbs.
    Finished Romandie in 7th behind Kruijswijk and ahead of Latour and Dan Martin.
    Backed that up by featuring in the Giro top 10 for much of the race, before slipping to 16th, in the killer final week.

    A breakthrough into the top 10 of a GT GC, next year and he could be on course...
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Who's Dennis riding for next year? Is it Bahrain?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    YorkshireRaw wrote:
    Rohan Dennis is 28 years old.
    All this talk of doing a Wiggins style conversion needs to come to fruition quickly. At 29 Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in the Tour. Dennis is a long way off that I'd say.

    Granted Geraint hadn't finished higher than 15th in a GT before this year, but he's been winning / contending for WT / HC stage races for 3-4 seasons now, as well as winning a WT 1 dayer and getting multiple top 10s in hard classics. He's one of the best all-rounders now along with Valverde, Kwiato etc.

    Dennis is currently in his second year of a four year transformation programme.
    In both Romandie and the Giro, this year, he showed significant improvement over the longer climbs.
    Finished Romandie in 7th behind Kruijswijk and ahead of Latour and Dan Martin.
    Backed that up by featuring in the Giro top 10 for much of the race, before slipping to 16th, in the killer final week.

    A breakthrough into the top 10 of a GT GC, next year and he could be on course...

    If he's truly got what it takes though, why does it need to be 4 years? In 08 Wiggins was riding the track. In '09 he was competing for the tour podium. His road career pre-08 wasn't much to write home about either, prior to 09 he'd started 5 and finished 3 GTs (DNF in '07 TDF not by choice tho).
    Dennis has been riding at WT level for 6 seasons now.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    So for me the Tour threw up a few questions

    1) i always felt the Wiggins trackie>GT winner transformation was relatively unique to him. This win from Thomas makes me wonder if the defining Tour winning characteristic is just having world class endurance speed (which is what being a pursuiter is all about).

    1 b) I also wonder therefore if the changing nature of racing, routes or whatever has moved the focus towards this attribute or if it’s always been that way. I have a theory that modern roads, kit, preparation etc has essentially shortened the race as each km is more efficiently raced than previously. This is what underpins my theory that longer stages help test different attributes.

    2) typically, when we see a top champ beaten ala pedale, especially at Froome’s age, it tends to signal a decline. I have certainly felt that when once Froome could just march off on a summit finish, the past two years he hasn’t had that same invincibility. Is this a sign or just a function of riding his fourth GT back-to-back?

    3) is Dumolin & Froome’s performance over both GTs a sign that performing well over both is possible, or is it an anachronism of this year’s scheduling that made it possible? Too often in the past we saw guys like Contador who just couldn’t reproduce the level after doing the Giro.
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    With relation to Froome, he probably is slightly over the hill - but 4 GTs in a row must take its toll, I still think a fresh on form Froome would have won that Tour.

    I also think Froome and Dumoulins performance over the 2 GTs was slightly flattered in the Tour due to the loss of some key competitors. Obviously you can only beat the people in the race but I think if Nibali and Porte had not crashed out the competition for the podium at least would have been a lot hotter (if not the win, Thomas did look very solid and like he had more to give).
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    So for me the Tour threw up a few questions

    1) i always felt the Wiggins trackie>GT winner transformation was relatively unique to him. This win from Thomas makes me wonder if the defining Tour winning characteristic is just having world class endurance speed (which is what being a pursuiter is all about).

    1 b) I also wonder therefore if the changing nature of racing, routes or whatever has moved the focus towards this attribute or if it’s always been that way. I have a theory that modern roads, kit, preparation etc has essentially shortened the race as each km is more efficiently raced than previously. This is what underpins my theory that longer stages help test different attributes.

    2) typically, when we see a top champ beaten ala pedale, especially at Froome’s age, it tends to signal a decline. I have certainly felt that when once Froome could just march off on a summit finish, the past two years he hasn’t had that same invincibility. Is this a sign or just a function of riding his fourth GT back-to-back?

    3) is Dumolin & Froome’s performance over both GTs a sign that performing well over both is possible, or is it an anachronism of this year’s scheduling that made it possible? Too often in the past we saw guys like Contador who just couldn’t reproduce the level after doing the Giro.
    With regard to point 1, I get confused with the terminology. I thought endurance speed was what sprinters needed, being able to hold top speed for as long as you can whereas what climbers needed was endurance strength. Whatever the terminology, the way they are riding climbs these days seems to require a similar style of effort to a team pursuit but for longer. It makes sense that some guys who are world class at maintaining an effort for three and a half minutes will be pretty good at maintaining it for the longer periods required by an Alpine climb.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    1) i always felt the Wiggins trackie>GT winner transformation was relatively unique to him. This win from Thomas makes me wonder if the defining Tour winning characteristic is just having world class endurance speed (which is what being a pursuiter is all about).

    Physiologically the IP/TP uses the same aerobic energy system as riding a grand tour so it's not that surprising that given the right training and enough motivation to commit to it a world class IP/TP rider can become a world class GT rider
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    r0bh wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    1) i always felt the Wiggins trackie>GT winner transformation was relatively unique to him. This win from Thomas makes me wonder if the defining Tour winning characteristic is just having world class endurance speed (which is what being a pursuiter is all about).

    Physiologically the IP/TP uses the same aerobic energy system as riding a grand tour so it's not that surprising that given the right training and enough motivation to commit to it a world class IP/TP rider can become a world class GT rider

    Sure but I guess I have always thought given how few people transfer from being a trackie to a GT contender that there was another aspect, the tank, that you just don't get from the track.

    Perhaps the tank is trainable in a way the endurance speed isnt
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    At the end of the tour when the usual suspects were bleating about Thomas' transformation, they were asking for examples of track riders becoming GC winners. I didnt get involved cos why, but my immediate thought was a certain Eddie Mercx

    One of the reasons GB wins so much on the track is that the best british riders ride track (+money). For most other countries, riders with that sort of talent would be put straight on the road so you'd know straight off if they have a tank or not. Part of the reason we've not seen how big Tomas' tank is, is that for the first 10 years of his career, it never ran close to being dry...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    ddraver wrote:
    At the end of the tour when the usual suspects were bleating about Thomas' transformation, they were asking for examples of track riders becoming GC winners. I didnt get involved cos why, but my immediate thought was a certain Eddie Mercx

    One of the reasons GB wins so much on the track is that the best british riders ride track (+money). For most other countries, riders with that sort of talent would be put straight on the road so you'd know straight off if they have a tank or not. Part of the reason we've not seen how big Tomas' tank is, is that for the first 10 years of his career, it never ran close to being dry...

    This I get.

    I don' think the Merckx stuff is hugely relevant. It's a different era with different specialities.

    I think one overlooked development is weight - to be a GT contender today you need to be unsustainably thin. I'd bet a fair bit that Merckx's fat percentage was significantly higher than anyone in the top 10 in this year's Tour, for example.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    I don' think the Merckx stuff is hugely relevant. It's a different era with different specialities.

    Well...is it?

    Or are we at the same point as we were with "peaking" in the EPO/blood bag era where what it actually meant was the culmination of your doping regime.

    There are only so many ways to turn pedals...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.

    I'm not hugely interested in allegations.

    In my mind, and I think a lot of people's for a good couple of decades, being a pursuiter and a GT GC rider were almost different sports entirely.

    That's plainly not the case, and I wonder why it was for a while and now isn't.

    Is it just attitudes have changed to what you can and can't do? Is it how training is approached nowadays? Is the racing different and so makes it easier to transition?

    There are a lot of moving parts, but it seems a big shift to me.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    ddraver wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:



    There are only so many ways to turn pedals...

    There are only so many ways to run too, but you rarely see 1500m winners become marathon winners. (unless I'm very mistaken).
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited August 2018
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.

    I'm not hugely interested in allegations.

    In my mind, and I think a lot of people's for a good couple of decades, being a pursuiter and a GT GC rider were almost different sports entirely.

    That's plainly not the case, and I wonder why it was for a while and now isn't.

    Is it just attitudes have changed to what you can and can't do? Is it how training is approached nowadays? Is the racing different and so makes it easier to transition?

    There are a lot of moving parts, but it seems a big shift to me.
    As others have said, unless you're British or Australian there's no money in pursuiting. And the Olympics were for amateurs until 1996. The money on the track was in six day races - which many GC riders did.
    Going way back the likes of Coppi and Anquetil rode pursuit. I'm pretty sure that Dumoulin or Roglic could knock out a sub 4.20 with a bit of training.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.

    I'm not hugely interested in allegations.

    In my mind, and I think a lot of people's for a good couple of decades, being a pursuiter and a GT GC rider were almost different sports entirely.

    That's plainly not the case, and I wonder why it was for a while and now isn't.

    Is it just attitudes have changed to what you can and can't do? Is it how training is approached nowadays? Is the racing different and so makes it easier to transition?

    There are a lot of moving parts, but it seems a big shift to me.

    Francois on the Cycling Podcast made the complete opposite point to this in their press conference edition that came out last night. He contended that since the 50s pursuiters/track riders/time trialists slimming down and becoming winning GC riders was the norm, and climbers winning the GC (especially in the Tour) were the exceptions.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    RichN95 wrote:
    Who's Dennis riding for next year? Is it Bahrain?
    That was the suggestion but don't think it has been confirmed yet.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    r0bh wrote:

    Francois on the Cycling Podcast made the complete opposite point to this in their press conference edition that came out last night. He contended that since the 50s pursuiters/track riders/time trialists slimming down and becoming winning GC riders was the norm, and climbers winning the GC (especially in the Tour) were the exceptions.

    Now now, let's not bring evidence into this!
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,820
    r0bh wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.

    I'm not hugely interested in allegations.

    In my mind, and I think a lot of people's for a good couple of decades, being a pursuiter and a GT GC rider were almost different sports entirely.

    That's plainly not the case, and I wonder why it was for a while and now isn't.

    Is it just attitudes have changed to what you can and can't do? Is it how training is approached nowadays? Is the racing different and so makes it easier to transition?

    There are a lot of moving parts, but it seems a big shift to me.

    Francois on the Cycling Podcast made the complete opposite point to this in their press conference edition that came out last night. He contended that since the 50s pursuiters/track riders/time trialists slimming down and becoming winning GC riders was the norm, and climbers winning the GC (especially in the Tour) were the exceptions.

    They also discussed an email from a certain Rick Chasey, as well
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    **not an email, a tw@t, i mean tweet**
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's funny who the track rider to GC rider 'transformation' allegations are never levelled at Simon Yates, a World Champion on the track. They also don't mention his TUEs for asthma drugs either.

    I'm not hugely interested in allegations.

    In my mind, and I think a lot of people's for a good couple of decades, being a pursuiter and a GT GC rider were almost different sports entirely.

    That's plainly not the case, and I wonder why it was for a while and now isn't.

    Is it just attitudes have changed to what you can and can't do? Is it how training is approached nowadays? Is the racing different and so makes it easier to transition?

    There are a lot of moving parts, but it seems a big shift to me.

    Francois on the Cycling Podcast made the complete opposite point to this in their press conference edition that came out last night. He contended that since the 50s pursuiters/track riders/time trialists slimming down and becoming winning GC riders was the norm, and climbers winning the GC (especially in the Tour) were the exceptions.

    They also discussed an email from a certain Rick Chasey, as well

    Haha, fame at last!
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,649
    r0bh wrote:

    Francois on the Cycling Podcast made the complete opposite point to this in their press conference edition that came out last night. He contended that since the 50s pursuiters/track riders/time trialists slimming down and becoming winning GC riders was the norm, and climbers winning the GC (especially in the Tour) were the exceptions.

    I have no idea wether pursuiters have a notable history of being turned into GT winners, aside from Merckx riding pursuit when young, but that was ages ago and cycling has moved on.

    Pursuiters do, however, get turned into TTers. And as pointed out above, TTers win GTs.
    Fair dos, a lot of TTing has been removed from modern GTs to favour the climbers, but TTers have responded by shedding even more weight. Dunno what Big Migs race weight was but I'd put money on it being heavier than any GT winner in the Sky era.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Dunno what Big Migs race weight was but I'd put money on it being heavier than any GT winner in the Sky era.
    80kg - there were probably only around ten heavier riders in this year's race. Greipel is 82kg
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,649
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Dunno what Big Migs race weight was but I'd put money on it being heavier than any GT winner in the Sky era.
    80kg - there were probably only around ten heavier riders in this year's race. Greipel is 82kg

    Incroyable. He must have a fantastic palmares in the spring classics.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    Big Mig was powered by a bit more than his 80 kgs and salbutamol.

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