End of Tour Team grades + Team of the Tour
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Coopster the 1st wrote:RichN95 wrote:
D Grade
Cofidis - Laporte almost won a stage, and that’s progress
I'm struggling to give them a grade as high as E. All I see Cofidis doing is denying a wild card to another Pro-Conti team and the benefits that would give that team and the sport of cycling in the respective country.
Navarro is a world class climber and Bouhanni a world class sprinter (( not known he wouldn't be there
at wild card) their second string sprinter embarrassed the so called superstar sprinters. Team worked hard. Less going nowhere attacks and breaks and more focus. Not sure what team you would replace them with?0 -
Also got all 8 riders to Paris, and didn’t they briefly have the polka dot jersey in the first week?Blazing Saddles wrote:SpecialGuestStar wrote:
Wanty - top team on 4 or 5 stages due to two division 1 sprinters . (Rightly) Criticised for lack of support for Martin in first week at the expense of a bit of camera time. More support and that would be a C also
Indeed.
9 - top 10 stage finishes between them.
Must be worth a "C" surely?0 -
If we look at this objectively, not a great tour and not a great winner either.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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SpecialGuestStar wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:RichN95 wrote:
D Grade
Cofidis - Laporte almost won a stage, and that’s progress
I'm struggling to give them a grade as high as E. All I see Cofidis doing is denying a wild card to another Pro-Conti team and the benefits that would give that team and the sport of cycling in the respective country.
Navarro is a world class climber and Bouhanni a world class sprinter (( not known he wouldn't be there
at wild card) their second string sprinter embarrassed the so called superstar sprinters. Team worked hard. Less going nowhere attacks and breaks and more focus. Not sure what team you would replace them with?
Aqua Blue Sport. At least inviting them on a wildcard would grow the sport.
Cofidis were the worst of the 4 wildcards, had no one in the top 10 of any classifications and their best riders finished 43rd, 45th & 47th, all within 3 minutes of each other. Was riding together the focus?
It's like they rode together knowing they would be automatically invited to ride the TdF next year.
Laporte got a 2nd and three 5th places. That is the reason they get an E and not an F
EDIT: They were also last in the TTT, 59 seconds behind anyone else. I'm not sure if it is them or the ASO that are taking the wee-wee out of French cycling.0 -
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DeadCalm wrote:
I think Sky will put up a fight on that, can't see him not being offered a good long term contract. The question is whether it's on the table before or after the Vuelta, which is looking like it will be his first GT. Tao also has an old head on young shoulders, he's unlikely to move as long as he's making consistent progress and getting the opportunities he wants. I don't see him being tempted by a few more Euros or a promise of a ride in a big race.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Tend to agree. But he's the one I'd most want if I were Sunweb and he's possibly within their budget. A sneaky approach could also force Sky into paying more which wouldn't be a bad thing for either Tao or Sunweb.No tA Doctor wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
I think Sky will put up a fight on that, can't see him not being offered a good long term contract. The question is whether it's on the table before or after the Vuelta, which is looking like it will be his first GT. Tao also has an old head on young shoulders, he's unlikely to move as long as he's making consistent progress and getting the opportunities he wants. I don't see him being tempted by a few more Euros or a promise of a ride in a big race.0 -
I have no reason to doubt you but, if Sunweb are in a position to offer a bigger salary than his current offer from Sky (by no means a given), the chance is that Sky will be persuaded to match their offer. That is money that Sky wouldn't be able to spend elsewhere. Not a terrible outcome for Sunweb.RichN95 wrote:Tao GH seems to be good friends with Bernal and Sky certainly see him as a key ingredient to Bernal's future.0 -
Sunweb have a good domestique, and he's Dutch, which is more useful for them. I mean, he's had a top 4 overall at the Vuelta and 5th overall at the Tour of Switzerland.
He just injured himself the week before the Tour.0 -
They do and he did. And I will keep banging the Oomen drum too.Rick Chasey wrote:Sunweb have a good domestique, and he's Dutch, which is more useful for them. I mean, he's had a top 4 overall at the Vuelta and 5th overall at the Tour of Switzerland.
He just injured himself the week before the Tour.
But even with Kelderman and Oomen, Sunweb are probably going to be outnumbered at the pointy end and that assumes neither is injured. Backups would probably be nice to have. Poels was suggested above. I suggested TGH as a marginally more realistic possibility but as others have pointed out, he will almost certainly stick with Sky.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Sunweb have a good domestique, and he's Dutch, which is more useful for them. I mean, he's had a top 4 overall at the Vuelta and 5th overall at the Tour of Switzerland.
He just injured himself the week before the Tour.
Isn't that the issue though? Sunweb have a good domestique, Sky have loads of good domestiques.
Yes, I know Sunweb have others - Oomen, Kragh - but seriously, line up Sunwebs best domestique team to cope with a standard GT (bit of flat sprint, bit of rouler territory, some MTFs) and put it alongside Sky's (you can even drop Thomas out of it now he's graduated) and give them a rating. Three of Sky's ex domestiques were leading (or joint leading) teams at the Tour, and at least one of them was considered a serious challenger. Sky rocked up with a team that had 5 current or ex national TT champs, two different monument winners, 3 riders with WT stage race wins - and all that's without counting Froome. It really is ridiculously strong, and they left Kiryenka, Stannard, Tao, Elissonde, van Barle, Rosa etc at home.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
They do and he did. And I will keep banging the Oomen drum too.Rick Chasey wrote:Sunweb have a good domestique, and he's Dutch, which is more useful for them. I mean, he's had a top 4 overall at the Vuelta and 5th overall at the Tour of Switzerland.
He just injured himself the week before the Tour.
But even with Kelderman and Oomen, Sunweb are probably going to be outnumbered at the pointy end and that assumes neither is injured. Backups would probably be nice to have. Poels was suggested above. I suggested TGH as a marginally more realistic possibility but as others have pointed out, he will almost certainly stick with Sky.
Poels is more realistic - though undoubtedly more expensive - than Tao, I would think. He doesn't seem to be interested in leading stage races - at least not GTs - but does like a crack at the hilly classics. Sunweb could probably offer him decent support for the classics and have him doing his current job but for Dumouin in the GTs.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Top 5 in the Vuelta is about a A list as you get before they become GC contenders in their own right.0
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The trouble with Kelderman Rick is that Tom has now narrowly lost 2 GTs, arguably both of which on split second decisions (chase on Col de Finestre, puncture on Mur de Bretagne) without him there.
Now he's not magic but thoise 2 situations are the sorts of things that a good Mountain domestique/road captain helps Tom to avoidWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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ddraver wrote:The trouble with Kelderman Rick is that Tom has now narrowly lost 2 GTs, arguably both of which on split second decisions (chase on Col de Finestre, puncture on Mur de Bretagne) without him there.
Now he's not magic but thoise 2 situations are the sorts of things that a good Mountain domestique/road captain helps Tom to avoid
Sure, but any rider can be injured.
Kelderman was on stonking form. 5th in Tour of Switzerland.
FWIW, Dumolin's main problem this Tour, after not being as strong as Thomas, was he stopped on the left hand side - which cost him more time than any domestique in the world would have saved him.
You're not gonna outgun sky money wise.0 -
I was thinking purely from a financial point of view. I'd guess Poels is on as much as many of the GC contenders at smaller teams and is beyond Sunweb's budget full stop.No tA Doctor wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
They do and he did. And I will keep banging the Oomen drum too.Rick Chasey wrote:Sunweb have a good domestique, and he's Dutch, which is more useful for them. I mean, he's had a top 4 overall at the Vuelta and 5th overall at the Tour of Switzerland.
He just injured himself the week before the Tour.
But even with Kelderman and Oomen, Sunweb are probably going to be outnumbered at the pointy end and that assumes neither is injured. Backups would probably be nice to have. Poels was suggested above. I suggested TGH as a marginally more realistic possibility but as others have pointed out, he will almost certainly stick with Sky.
Poels is more realistic - though undoubtedly more expensive - than Tao, I would think. He doesn't seem to be interested in leading stage races - at least not GTs - but does like a crack at the hilly classics. Sunweb could probably offer him decent support for the classics and have him doing his current job but for Dumouin in the GTs.0 -
Looking at my pics from stage 10 of the tour, dumoulin was led by my man ten Dam over the Romme, so he didn't do the whole race on his own. The problem with kelderman is that he does fall off his bike a lot.Half man, Half bike0
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Dumoulin's real problem is his utter lack of a snappy acceleration. He can only climb at threshold so can only ever distance the competition if they are no longer able to hold the wheel. That will hardly ever happen against the top GC guys.
So, they can eternally wheel suck him and pip him for bonus seconds or last 1-2 km attacks. He has to perpetually hope his TT can bring him back. Usually the damage is already too great by that stage in the race.
Froome in particular is the counter to Dumoulin. He can TT close enough, climb at a close enough or even better threshold, but also has a solid acceleration. He can do everything Dumoulin does close enough, but has the 1 thing as well that Dumoulin doesn't.
Additionally Dumoulin is only an average descender. He got dropped by Kwiatkowski (a very good descender) in San Sebastian for example (and had to fight back on the flat) and mostly will not be able to stick with Froome, Bardet, Roglic or Nibali when they really push it.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
If you sat some experts down and asked them to come up with a cyclist to defeat Sky, they would create Tom Domoulin. Now he may the first draft. Maybe Roglic is the second draft. But what is sure is that the Bardet/Quintana prototype has no future. It might work in Italy or Spain though.Twitter: @RichN950
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Roglic has more snap (but probably also not enough). I think the 2014 Vuelta showed really well how to do it. Both Contador and Froome came injured from the Tour. That may skew the result and analogy a bit, but go with me. Contador really didn't invest too much. He stuck with Froome, waited for his attack, held his wheel and the countered for the win.
Now obviously Contadors don't grow on trees, but without the snap, Froome does not need to pre-emptively attack and even if he does the counter doesn't stick and Froome rides to wattage and bridges.
Maybe Rohan Dennis will be the actual 3.0 version to get it done. At least if he ever gets done with the weight loss and prep to be ready to contend. No idea if he isn't exactly like Dumoulin as well though in terms of lack of an acceleration.
In a way it's the same problem Sep Vanmarcke has in the classics against Sagan, Gilbert, GVA etc.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
I can't remember who said it, but I agreed. They said the example of how to beat Sky was provided by Sky on the Finistere stage of the Giro.M.R.M. wrote:Roglic has more snap (but probably also not enough). I think the 2014 Vuelta showed really well how to do it. Both Contador and Froome came injured from the Tour. That may skew the result and analogy a bit, but go with me. Contador really didn't invest too much. He stuck with Froome, waited for his attack, held his wheel and the countered for the win.
Now obviously Contadors don't grow on trees, but without the snap, Froome does not need to pre-emptively attack and even if he does the counter doesn't stick and Froome rides to wattage and bridges.Twitter: @RichN950 -
How so? Won't Sky just have around 2 former TT national champs to bring Froome back when Dumoulin or whoever attacks from 60-40k out?PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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RichN95 wrote:
I can't remember who said it, but I agreed. They said the example of how to beat Sky was provided by Sky on the Finistere stage of the Giro.M.R.M. wrote:Roglic has more snap (but probably also not enough). I think the 2014 Vuelta showed really well how to do it. Both Contador and Froome came injured from the Tour. That may skew the result and analogy a bit, but go with me. Contador really didn't invest too much. He stuck with Froome, waited for his attack, held his wheel and the countered for the win.
Now obviously Contadors don't grow on trees, but without the snap, Froome does not need to pre-emptively attack and even if he does the counter doesn't stick and Froome rides to wattage and bridges.
How on earth do you manage to burn off all the Sky super domestiques?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Sky used their entire team to blow the whole field apart. They sacrificed everyone and gambled everything. As was pointed out on the Cycling Podcast, Lotto Jumbo used Gesink to blow out Poels and Kwiato.M.R.M. wrote:How so? Won't Sky just have around 2 former TT national champs to bring Froome back when Dumoulin or whoever attacks from 60-40k out?
When you see Luke Rowe leading the peloton over category 1/HC climbs then you know Sky are getting their way unchallenged.Twitter: @RichN950 -
That is true, but wouldn't you say it's still rather unlikely the others can manage to truly blow out all the Sky domestiques? It's definitely worth trying, but cycling is complicated there again especially in the Tour, that instead of risking it for the win, most tend to accept Sky winning and ride for the podium or placements.
btw Rich, scroll up. I edited one post regarding Rohan Dennis. Do you (or anyone) think he could be the true Dumoulin Sky killer 2.0?PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
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Dumoulin no snap?
Must have been someone else at Oropa then
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Still blows me away that Dumolin and Froome over both the Giro and Tour are only 13 seconds apart.0
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If you mean this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaGRESRtxMs I don't see how this makes your point. It actually corroborates mine.bobmcstuff wrote:Dumoulin no snap?
Must have been someone else at Oropa thenPTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
