La Course 2018 **SPOILERS**

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Clare Balding seems to do a very good job of commentating on horse racing despite not being a horse;

However, she was a successful amateur jockey and comes from a family of trainers (father won the Derby, uncle won the National, brother won the Oaks). And she's a presenter not a commentator.

Gilmore works in the women's side of the sport on a daily basis. She knows the riders back to front. Boulting probably doesn't

Cylcing commentary is really, really difficult. For a start, you've got hours and hours to fill. Then you've got the same issues as everyone else following the race on TV - if the motos don't show you someone dropped or an attack then you won't know (yes, they also listen to the race radio), unreliable time-gaps, trying to recognise riders from a brief glimpse etc. On top of this you should be able to add a layer of tactics and strategy for your viewers. You need to know the riders, their strengths and weaknesses and current form, their goals for the race, their team set-up. That's bloody hard for anyone that isn't involved in cycling on a day to day basis.

On a side note, this is part of the reason a good race spoiler thread works so well - observations are crowd sourced, other people remember that rider X was actually junior TT champion and got a top ten at the worlds in 2013 etc.

Aye.

If Ned is taking advice, I'd still suggest, for him, less is more.

Fewer words, less time speaking.

Millar is about a decent co-commentator as we've had in the UK.

Arguably McEwen is better, because he is just SO GOOD AT THE SOUNDBITE and he has a natural Aussie advantage for that, but he's pretty good.

ShutupJens

No tA Doctor wrote:

other people remember that rider X was actually junior TT champion and got a top ten at the worlds in 2013 etc.

Cancellara

shirley_basso

Tao Geogehan Hart was great on stage 1, co commenting on ITV. Was able to talk in depth about himself, his season, successes in California and Romandie (I think) but also in detail at Bernal. Also made it sound interesting, talking about domestiques roles in more detail.

Millar is good but his voice is so dull.

ddraver

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

Lanterne_Rogue

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

With La Course, i personally felt that Lizzie Deignan was better at the co-coms than GIlmour - Deignan has a lot of the ability Millar has to talk about tactics, and also a surprising ability to pick out riders simply by what they're doing on the road even when the camera is zoomed right out. Gilmour was essential for bringing the knowledge about individuals and their history though, and I doubt there are many out there who would both have that knowledge and the TV experience, given where women's cycling currently is.

ddraver

I can't comment as I was forced to watch that in Dutch.

Apparently Jose and Marijn (Marijn in particular) are very good but....

DeVlaeminck

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

It hasn't has it? I mean preference is subjective but given the choice I normally choose Eurosport - plenty on here seem to do likewise.

DeVlaeminck

TGOTB wrote:

Gilmore's commentating doesn't seem to have improved since last year. I get that they want to have a woman commentating on a women's race, but why can't they find someone who can actually commentate? Why the belief that you have to be a bike racer to commentate, even if you can only talk in a monotone? Clare Balding seems to do a very good job of commentating on horse racing despite not being a horse; I'm sure she could do just as well with a bike race.

And why put La Course up against one of the more interesting men's stages? If it's just going to be one day, run it in the Alps when the men's race is on some boring transition stage in the middle of nowhere...

If you were going to do that why clash with the Tour at all? Isn't the whole point that a lot of the stuff (including fans) needed for a big race are already there for the men?

larkim

DeVlaeminck wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Gilmore's commentating doesn't seem to have improved since last year. I get that they want to have a woman commentating on a women's race, but why can't they find someone who can actually commentate? Why the belief that you have to be a bike racer to commentate, even if you can only talk in a monotone? Clare Balding seems to do a very good job of commentating on horse racing despite not being a horse; I'm sure she could do just as well with a bike race.

And why put La Course up against one of the more interesting men's stages? If it's just going to be one day, run it in the Alps when the men's race is on some boring transition stage in the middle of nowhere...

If you were going to do that why clash with the Tour at all? Isn't the whole point that a lot of the stuff (including fans) needed for a big race are already there for the men?

Some of the riders in La Course yesterday were certainly commenting that the atmosphere they had was great, so I think that is definitely a solid part of the appeal.

ddraver

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

It hasn't has it? I mean preference is subjective but given the choice I normally choose Eurosport - plenty on here seem to do likewise.

Becasue it's better or through habit? Complaining about Carlton all year then eschewing a chance (in fact, the chance) to avoid him for three weeks doesnt make much sense...

I must accept though that the continuous feed, available on a phone in the ES player app though is very good. Neither channel lacks for adverts

tgotb

larkim wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Gilmore's commentating doesn't seem to have improved since last year. I get that they want to have a woman commentating on a women's race, but why can't they find someone who can actually commentate? Why the belief that you have to be a bike racer to commentate, even if you can only talk in a monotone? Clare Balding seems to do a very good job of commentating on horse racing despite not being a horse; I'm sure she could do just as well with a bike race.

And why put La Course up against one of the more interesting men's stages? If it's just going to be one day, run it in the Alps when the men's race is on some boring transition stage in the middle of nowhere...

If you were going to do that why clash with the Tour at all? Isn't the whole point that a lot of the stuff (including fans) needed for a big race are already there for the men?

Some of the riders in La Course yesterday were certainly commenting that the atmosphere they had was great, so I think that is definitely a solid part of the appeal.

What if they'd run it on the same course then, but a day earlier. Set the infrastructure up for 2 days rather than 1; the fans don't have another stage to be at. The TV crews, caravan etc would miss out on a rest day, but surely that's not a show-stopper...

davidof

ddraver wrote:

I can't comment as I was forced to watch that in Dutch.

Apparently Jose and Marijn (Marijn in particular) are very good but....

I watched in French, with the best cycling commentator, in the world!

davidof

larkim wrote:

Via the excellent LR thread just learned that in 15th place yesterday on La Course was 51 year old Edwige Pitel.

I think that is more a reflection of the weakness of the women's field. Before Edwige we had Jeannie Lonpoe racing well into her dotage. Jeannie would still be going if the FFC hadn't effectively sidelined her from the sport. Lappartient wanted young babes to represent France, PFP and co.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

It hasn't has it? I mean preference is subjective but given the choice I normally choose Eurosport - plenty on here seem to do likewise.

Unless Rob Hatch is on, ES is last resort.

larkim

davidof wrote:

larkim wrote:

Via the excellent LR thread just learned that in 15th place yesterday on La Course was 51 year old Edwige Pitel.

I think that is more a reflection of the weakness of the women's field. Before Edwige we had Jeannie Lonpoe racing well into her dotage. Jeannie would still be going if the FFC hadn't effectively sidelined her from the sport. Lappartient wanted young babes to represent France, PFP and co.

I thought that at first, and then I reflected that it couldn't be that - as she was only 5 minutes down. Had she come in 15th and been 15 minutes down that would have shown a field with no depth. Anyone within 6 minutes of the leader on a stage like that is no slouch.

davidof

I reckon Edwige just wants to avoid a proper job in IT !

https://imp-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup. ... lang=en_US

She completed l'Etape in 5h47’46, about half an hour behind the first male rider and 10 minutes down on Franck Schleck.

bobmcstuff

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

It hasn't has it? I mean preference is subjective but given the choice I normally choose Eurosport - plenty on here seem to do likewise.

ES is still the channel for the proper fan, simply because it shows far, far more races than ITV. It also has on the app uninterrupted host broadcaster coverage, plus often individual moto cams and so on. This makes it a lot more complete.

However I prefer ITV coverage when it's on (I typically have the uninterrupted coverage on the TV on mute with ITV sound on my laptop...)

awavey

underlayunderlay wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Having watched the first week with ITV4 and now being forced on to ES. I can say I much prefer Ned & Dave. Millar's insight is so much better than Sean's (almost blasphemy I know) and having Stuart O'grady for the cobbles was great.

Rick talks about how Sporza lay out and explain the potential tactics before they happen and then explain how or why the riders might have done them differently. Millar does that too. There's a certain irony that ES has now become the channel for the new fan wheras ITV has taken over as the "proper cycling fan" channel.

With La Course, i personally felt that Lizzie Deignan was better at the co-coms than GIlmour - Deignan has a lot of the ability Millar has to talk about tactics, and also a surprising ability to pick out riders simply by what they're doing on the road even when the camera is zoomed right out. Gilmour was essential for bringing the knowledge about individuals and their history though, and I doubt there are many out there who would both have that knowledge and the TV experience, given where women's cycling currently is.

Lizzie was very good at the TdY too, one of the few times Ive recorded a stage like that live and then rewatched the whole thing because she was just so good at picking what was going to happen next and what tactics riders would be using,

Rochelle is ok just everything she says has that its a question ? pitch rise australian thing? so here we are ? talking about a race? this is a climb? over to you Ned ? does your head in after more than an hour.

mididoctors

i am not getting why they dont do the 65km mountain sprint stage as well ... easily time in the day?

tgotb

mididoctors wrote:

i am not getting why they dont do the 65km mountain sprint stage as well ... easily time in the day?

Because they're 8 days apart, so everyone would have to go home for a week, and then come back to a different part of France and do it all again.

They could design the men's course specifically to also facilitate several consecutive days of women's racing, but one gets the impression that "compromising" the men's race just to facilitate a better women's race would be a step too far...

DeVlaeminck

ddraver wrote:

Becasue it's better or through habit? Complaining about Carlton all year then eschewing a chance (in fact, the chance) to avoid him for three weeks doesnt make much sense...

I must accept though that the continuous feed, available on a phone in the ES player app though is very good. Neither channel lacks for adverts

I don't rate Boulting any higher than Kirby. They are two extremes, one is almost a parody of sports commentators, the other gives the impression he's standing in because the commentator hasn't turned up. I can actually live with Kirby's cheesy jokes and links more easily than Boulting and Millar explaining the bleedin' obvious as if it's some kind of insight only those steeped in cycling would have.

It's subjective but I just prefer Eurosport.

RichN95.

TGOTB wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

i am not getting why they dont do the 65km mountain sprint stage as well ... easily time in the day?

Because they're 8 days apart, so everyone would have to go home for a week, and then come back to a different part of France and do it all again.

They could design the men's course specifically to also facilitate several consecutive days of women's racing, but one gets the impression that "compromising" the men's race just to facilitate a better women's race would be a step too far...

They could have done versions of stages 8,9 and 10 with a short TT on the rest day. Sprint, cobbles, TT, mountains. That would have made a good little race.

blazing_saddles

Dani Rowe on ITV 4 wants a TDF "in some form", but definitely doesn't want it to mirror the men's race, or for it to be 3 weeks long.
Both she and Katarzyna Niewiadoma are quite realistic about there being physiological differences.
She thinks that should the women's tour be three weeks long, it would have to be ridden defensively, leading to a load of boring stages.
So, not the best way to promote women's racing.

larkim

On the physiological differences - I've often seen the 10% performance fall off noted (it's fairly obvious to see in most areas, e.g. world records in running for example), but I thought physiologically there was actually expected to be some narrowing of that when endurance is thrown into the equation.

Is there any physiological reason why women would not endure / recover throughout a 3 week tour as well as men? Reduce the course lengths by 10% to make some allowance for speed differentials, and perhaps factor something similar into the max climb lengths and surely that could result in a comparable Tour.

That sort of observation about differences doesn't feel too far removed from the "women can't be allowed to run marathons as it affects their fertility" arguments from the 1950s. I am happy to be corrected though!!

bobmcstuff

larkim wrote:

On the physiological differences - I've often seen the 10% performance fall off noted (it's fairly obvious to see in most areas, e.g. world records in running for example), but I thought physiologically there was actually expected to be some narrowing of that when endurance is thrown into the equation.

Is there any physiological reason why women would not endure / recover throughout a 3 week tour as well as men? Reduce the course lengths by 10% to make some allowance for speed differentials, and perhaps factor something similar into the max climb lengths and surely that could result in a comparable Tour.

That sort of observation about differences doesn't feel too far removed from the "women can't be allowed to run marathons as it affects their fertility" arguments from the 1950s. I am happy to be corrected though!!

Isn't it just that the women's peloton is not very deep or used to riding a 3 week race. They would have to be really defensive as none if them would have ridden that kind of race before and the peloton already have quite a steep performance dropoff when you get below the top handful of riders.

The majority of them aren't even paid a proper salary so it feels a bit unrealistic that they should be expected to put on a blistering 3 week race.

awavey

yeah the point is you cant go from the situation we have now where half the peloton are unpaid university students, to a full on 3 week grand tour and expect them to compete at the same level, thats just ridiculous, the pro-riders train for the type of races they have today to maximise their chances of winning and everyone else tries to muck in to compete.

What we'd want is just a 10 day Tour of France style race to match the Giro Rosa to begin with ,but with alot better coverage/promotion and push the standard Womens Grand Tour to a 10 stage race as that gives you alot of scope to introduce time trials and uphill bits and move around. then see where you can extend it to.

I geniunely dont think anyone in womens racing wants a 21 stage race to just drop on the calendar.