When is enough enough?

Moonbiker

$3000 is affordable?

keef66

Moonbiker wrote:

$3000 is affordable?

To some yes, to many, no. Affordable is by its nature a relative term.

Bumo_b

Sadly can't afford those prices although yearn for the bling. Managed to build both a Bianchi carbon and a Cervelo P2C for time trialling for £1400 from bits from ebay, but it takes months of scouring and saving and I'm lucky in that I have someone who can check the frames. Could be hit and miss though.

pilot_pete

Why is it that if someone spends a ‘lot’ on a bike/ kit they get talked about in mass generalisations on here as ‘stupid’, ‘overweight’, ‘slow’, ‘no idea’, ‘don’t ride enough’, ‘wasting money as they could get a bike at half the price’, etc etc etc.

It just smacks of jealousy when I read those comments about ‘someone I saw/ overtook etc’. Would it be improper to snear at the recent graduate earlier in the thread just starting to make his way in life and thus unable to afford top end kit? Yes. So why is it deemed acceptable to snear at someone who (presumably) has enough disposable income to spend on a top end bike/ kit?

And just because someone does spend that, why do people think that they should have to be able to ride at the same speed as Chris Froome to in some way justify its purchase?

It’s horses for courses - there is a point in the market for everyone. I grew up on a council estate in the 1970s and my bikes were all built from parts acquired from the local scrap yard. We had nothing. My dad was unemployed for much of my childhood and I spent two years saving from the age of 13 by doing little jobs here and there to get £140 together to buy a Raleigh Rapide racer. I had posters of it on my wall next to my dream bike - a Colnago.

I loved that Raleigh and spent hour after hour riding it. I knew nothing of cycling clubs and regret never joining one back then in my teens.

Years later coming back to cycling in the 2000s after some mates mentioned that they rode on a Thursday evening I looked at getting another road bike. Things had moved on both in terms of kit and of my disposable income. I spent £2.5k (significantly less in terms of my income than the £140 back in the 1970s) and thoroughly enjoyed getting back in the saddle.

Averaging 5.5-7k miles a year since then working full time shifts and joining a club, doing a bit of TTing and still enjoying it I decided to treat myself to my dream bike from years and years ago and built a Colnago (C60). I did, and still do love it. I love it so much I built a Colnago Concept 18months ago. Again, both not cheap, but it is all relative.

Do I ride like a pro? Of course not. Can I ride at a half decent pace for my age and not have 5 spacers under the stem? Sure. I love the tech, I love maintaining them and cleaning them. I love the fettling and the riding. I love working shifts and having days off in the week where I will go out and do 100mile+ solo. I equally love having a Saturday off and riding with mates in a group. I love riding with retired guys if I’m off on a Wednesday (I’m one of the youngest at just over 50!) who still average 17mph for an 80 mile ride with a lunch stop, one of whom won the Milk Race, twice...

I love riding over the hills to see my aero medical examiner once a year to keep my flying medical and being told (again) “you are the only pilot that rides to his medical that I know” and promptly being told I have a blood pressure reading that he would be happy with in a fit teenager, and a resting heart rate of 42.

I also own a Felt F65x which has been converted into a winter bike (and got a ‘super nice’ from GCN Tech show last week!) which cost me £1100 in 2011. I’ve just rebuilt it with £600 worth of new 105. I consider that an absolute bargain for 8 years of winter use.

I have recently been scouring eBay, gumtree etc as I am looking to buy several second hand bikes to start a weekly ride for a local charity taking in and assisting ex-servicemen who have become homeless to get back on their feet. There are real bargains out there for circa £500.

So let’s get away from the prejudice and understand that we are all different, we all have different priorities, we all have differing disposable incomes and all choose to spend that in different ways. How much is too much? It depends.

PP

shirley_basso

Is the thread not mocking the manufacturers who are brazen enough to charge astronomical prices on what are extremely basic items of machinery and clothing, even if you have 12 speed wireless electronic gears and carbon wheels.

People can spend their money how they like.

pilot_pete

davebradswmb wrote:

There are some people who just want to spend as much as they can on their kit, if only to show off how much money they have. They won't admit to it, they will repeat all the marketing blurb to justify their purchase, but you don't have to spend long riding with them before you know they are talking rubbish. Who can blame the manufacturers pandering to these people, the money might as well end up in their pocket as anybody else's.

And you’ll find that sort of response all over when this subject arises...

Can’t people accept that others are free to spend their money as they wish? Nobody needs a Ferrari but people still buy them. Nobody needs much more than a something like a Smart car in reality, but we have freedom of choice, just like Primark or Mr Porter, both sell clothes, but to different segments of the market.

I happen to agree that as the price goes up for bikes you get diminishing returns. Some are happy to pay for those diminishing returns, others are not. That’s fine.

PP

sgt.pepper

Pilot Pete wrote:

davebradswmb wrote:

There are some people who just want to spend as much as they can on their kit, if only to show off how much money they have. They won't admit to it, they will repeat all the marketing blurb to justify their purchase, but you don't have to spend long riding with them before you know they are talking rubbish. Who can blame the manufacturers pandering to these people, the money might as well end up in their pocket as anybody else's.

And you’ll find that sort of response all over when this subject arises...

Can’t people accept that others are free to spend their money as they wish? Nobody needs a Ferrari but people still buy them. Nobody needs much more than a something like a Smart car in reality, but we have freedom of choice, just like Primark or Mr Porter, both sell clothes, but to different segments of the market.

I happen to agree that as the price goes up for bikes you get diminishing returns. Some are happy to pay for those diminishing returns, others are not. That’s fine.

PP

I'm generally very tight fisted whether my finances are good or bad. I couldn't care less how people choose to spend their money - at the end of the day a) I'll take a slightly fat bloke on a TT bike over him caning a Porsche next to me any day and b) that gear will filter down to the 2nd hand market (often barely used) as they replace it for the latest model.

I'm sure you could argue that me investing in getting my mid-70s Raleigh frame upgraded with all the trimmings is also a waste of money - for what I've spent so far I could have got a faster, lighter modern bike. But my Raleigh makes me happier than a modern bike does, so I couldn't care less.

The only thing I take a bit of issue with is when bike makers seem to introduce unnecessary tech just to make the prior stuff obsolete - Di2 in particular seems very pointless.

Bumo_b

I still miss my Raleigh Equipe, bought with my Saturday job money. Cycled down the west side of France on that thing. I remember riding it to work every Saturday and being able to do the 12 miles from Hanwell to Oxford St in a few seconds below half hour on that thing. Granted I’m a lot older, but I’m now lighter, train more and have a a reasonably “bling” bike and can’t even get close to those speeds. The figure I seem to remember paying was £130ish. I can never remember servicing the thing and can’t even remember changing the tyres let alone oiling the chain. It was a steed fit for a king and certainly made me feel like one.

haydenm

Pilot Pete wrote:

davebradswmb wrote:

There are some people who just want to spend as much as they can on their kit, if only to show off how much money they have. They won't admit to it, they will repeat all the marketing blurb to justify their purchase, but you don't have to spend long riding with them before you know they are talking rubbish. Who can blame the manufacturers pandering to these people, the money might as well end up in their pocket as anybody else's.

And you’ll find that sort of response all over when this subject arises...

Can’t people accept that others are free to spend their money as they wish? Nobody needs a Ferrari but people still buy them. Nobody needs much more than a something like a Smart car in reality, but we have freedom of choice, just like Primark or Mr Porter, both sell clothes, but to different segments of the market.

I happen to agree that as the price goes up for bikes you get diminishing returns. Some are happy to pay for those diminishing returns, others are not. That’s fine.

PP

I agree. I don't know many people who buy expensive stuff purely to show off how much money they have, the show offs usually buy nice stuff then show it off because it's nice and think other people care, then people without nice stuff write bitchy comments on the internet about it.

I'm not sure why people are surprised that bikes cost a lot of money though. I don't think the cost of one of the many reduced tiagra supersix or Croix de Fer is unrealistic (or drastically higher than a decent bike in the past). A good quality bike will always cost more than we want it to to, there is just more offering at the top end than there used to be. Try being obsessed with guitars at the moment...

Tashman

Bumo_b wrote:

I still miss my Raleigh Equipe, bought with my Saturday job money. Cycled down the west side of France on that thing. I remember riding it to work every Saturday and being able to do the 12 miles from Hanwell to Oxford St in a few seconds below half hour on that thing. Granted I’m a lot older, but I’m now lighter, train more and have a a reasonably “bling” bike and can’t even get close to those speeds. The figure I seem to remember paying was £130ish. I can never remember servicing the thing and can’t even remember changing the tyres let alone oiling the chain. It was a steed fit for a king and certainly made me feel like one.

Ah happy memories, I got mine for Christmas when I was 12. I barely slept after I heard it being wheeled into the house after I'd gone to bed. I covered many happy miles on that. Similarly beyond the odd bit of 3-in-1 oil my dad kept in the shed I never maintained it.

Moonbiker

Similarly beyond the odd bit of 3-in-1 oil my dad kept in the shed I never maintained it.

Why make modern bikes durable they would make less money - planned obsolescence *dons tin foil hat*

Moonbiker

The two new lower end shimano groupsets r2000 & r3000 you can't even buy from any UK retailer.

& pricing for it from germany doesn't seem much lower then 4700 anyway.

mr_mojo

Well said PP. I love building bikes as much as riding them, I currently have 9 at a total price of about £50k including 4 Colnago’s and 2 Cipollini’s. It’s all relative to what I earn. To me it’s my nice bike collection, I never bought them to impress I just buy them to ride and enjoy.

Bumo_b

"Similarly beyond the odd bit of 3-in-1 oil my dad kept in the shed I never maintained it."

I didn't want to say it, but they don't make them like they use to. I do plan on lovingly restoring my old Equipe, or rather replicating it from parts. Will take me ages to find the exact parts, including the exact brake. Should be a lot less expensive than looking at all the new bike porn and upgrades!

1964johnr

Shimano Mountain bike shoes £45
Shimano road bike shoes £35
Soft Shell windproof jacket Tenn outdoors £25
Retro short sleeve summer tops £25 from Prendas Cyclimo in the sale
Winter tights Muddy Fox £ 12
Summer shorts Muddy Fox £ 10
Helmets £ 25
Winter Gloves £ 10
Summer gloves £ 5
Socks, skull caps, planet x for a few quid
Summer bike Ribble Carbon Granfondo 2015 £ 1200
Winter bike Giant SCR 2 2008 £ 500
Vittorio Zaffiro tyres £ 5 each in the wiggle/chain reaction sale every January
Tubes £10 for five from ebay
Spare parts/replacement parts, shifters, chains, rear mechs etc new and/or secondhand from Chain Reaction, Ribble,ebay
lights £ 10
All spread out over the last 12 years, it works out at about £3.00 a ride for my two rides a week. I certainly don't look as good as other riders, but as long as i'm warm in the winter and cool in the summer l'm happy.

haydenm

The last thing I want to do is work out the £/km of the money I blow into bikes. It's a hobby and I like nice things, if I can't afford it I wont get it, I do all my budgeting and penny pinching at work with other people's money

keef66

For some reason I wanted to find out what size Sportful jersey I'd bought a couple of years ago, so I looked at all my past orders on Wiggle :shock: And I reckon they only account for half my spending

I'm not working that lot out in pence per mile...

cowboyjon

I love it how almost every thread on this forum somehow manages to become a narcissistic jizzfest with people finding an excuse to list all the nice things they've bought themselves.

joey54321

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

The only thing I take a bit of issue with is when bike makers seem to introduce unnecessary tech just to make the prior stuff obsolete - Di2 in particular seems very pointless.

Until you ride it, IMO it's fantastic.

Besides, Shimano are still making other mechanical groupsets to provide choice.

pilot_pete

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

The only thing I take a bit of issue with is when bike makers seem to introduce unnecessary tech just to make the prior stuff obsolete - Di2 in particular seems very pointless.

That’s a bit of a skewed view on development. Do you still own a twin tub washing machine and mangle? Do you drive a car with a starting handle rather than a starter motor? Gas lights at home? :roll:

It’s called development and advancement. There are always those that don’t get it because they personally don’t see the advantage or don’t like the cost. But today’s cutting edge is tomorrow’s old hat and the price points come down. There will always be an entry level, a mid-range and a top end. When I was a kid a Colnago with Super Record was just a dream on a poster on my bedroom wall as it was as out of reach as a Lamborghini.

I for one am very happy that clever engineers keep developing and trying and advancing tech. Sure, my old Raleigh Rapide was a nice bike when I was 14, but quite honestly it’s not a patch on a modern day bike.

Similarly my first car, a Hillman Imp felt brilliant at the age of 17, but it was a sh1theap which suffered from overheating (radiator in the front, engine in the back), warped head (due to overheating), constant ignition problems due to points that would burn out regularly, a heater that was hopeless, uncomfortable, cold, unrefined, and couldn’t carry 4 adults up a hill (I kid you not, my mates would have to get out and walk up the hill to meet me at the top!) I look at entry level cars now and the development is astronomical...

So di2 may seem pointless to you, but it certainly isn’t pointless. You can carry on buying Tourney and if you are happy with that then great, others don’t share your blinkered view on development, sophistication, form and function. Each to their own.

PP

Matthewfalle

joey54321 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

The only thing I take a bit of issue with is when bike makers seem to introduce unnecessary tech just to make the prior stuff obsolete - Di2 in particular seems very pointless.

Until you ride it, IMO it's fantastic.

Besides, Shimano are still making other mechanical groupsets to provide choice.

Look are speccing mechanical D/A on their new one so mechanical can't be that bad .....

PhilipPirrip

For those who find Rapha clothing too costly let us introduce Raphp;

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... Text=raphp

keef66

Pilot Pete wrote:

Similarly my first car, a Hillman Imp felt brilliant at the age of 17, but it was a sh1theap which suffered from overheating (radiator in the front, engine in the back), warped head (due to overheating), constant ignition problems due to points that would burn out regularly, a heater that was hopeless, uncomfortable, cold, unrefined, and couldn’t carry 4 adults up a hill (I kid you not, my mates would have to get out and walk up the hill to meet me at the top!) I look at entry level cars now and the development is astronomical...

I remember being driven from Cambridge up to the Lakes one sunny easter by my then GF who had an Imp. We stopped at one point on the A1 to let it cool down a bit, and I fashioned a bit of impromptu air cooling by wedging the engine cover slightly ajar with a couple of coke cans then securing it with a bungee. It did seem to help a bit.

She must've liked the air cooled, rear engine idea; she chopped the Imp in for a Beetle!

Tashman

keef66 wrote:

Pilot Pete wrote:

Similarly my first car, a Hillman Imp felt brilliant at the age of 17, but it was a sh1theap which suffered from overheating (radiator in the front, engine in the back), warped head (due to overheating), constant ignition problems due to points that would burn out regularly, a heater that was hopeless, uncomfortable, cold, unrefined, and couldn’t carry 4 adults up a hill (I kid you not, my mates would have to get out and walk up the hill to meet me at the top!) I look at entry level cars now and the development is astronomical...

I remember being driven from Cambridge up to the Lakes one sunny easter by my then GF who had an Imp. We stopped at one point on the A1 to let it cool down a bit, and I fashioned a bit of impromptu air cooling by wedging the engine cover slightly ajar with a couple of coke cans then securing it with a bungee. It did seem to help a bit.

She must've liked the air cooled, rear engine idea; she chopped the Imp in for a Beetle!

They still overheat and warp the head. My Father-in-law hs one he tinkers with constantly. He did the Liege-Brescia-Liege with it in 2010. It made it all the way - just!

cld531c

PhilipPirrip wrote:

For those who find Rapha clothing too costly let us introduce Raphp;

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... Text=raphp

I prefer Ralpha....
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2018-Si ... 1225a56f99

Bumo_b

My first car was a Lada Riva. Don't laugh

philbar72

I’ve a job that doesn’t pay as well as the old consultancy I used to run, so I just downgraded the things like drivetrain and brake pads to less costly things. As for expensive kit, most of the second tier stuff (so not “innovators” like castelli or Ralphas is more than good enough. I do have a fancy lid but am due to go for the £13 Carnac option soon…

pilot_pete

And that’s the beauty, there is kit available for all pockets. However, that kit improves due to the trickle down from innovation at the top end, so even those who don’t want/ like/ can’t afford the top end stuff should still be happy with the innovation and development as their price point sees the innovation in time...

PP

sgt.pepper

Pilot Pete wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

The only thing I take a bit of issue with is when bike makers seem to introduce unnecessary tech just to make the prior stuff obsolete - Di2 in particular seems very pointless.

That’s a bit of a skewed view on development. Do you still own a twin tub washing machine and mangle? Do you drive a car with a starting handle rather than a starter motor? Gas lights at home? :roll:

It’s called development and advancement. There are always those that don’t get it because they personally don’t see the advantage or don’t like the cost. But today’s cutting edge is tomorrow’s old hat and the price points come down. There will always be an entry level, a mid-range and a top end. When I was a kid a Colnago with Super Record was just a dream on a poster on my bedroom wall as it was as out of reach as a Lamborghini.

I for one am very happy that clever engineers keep developing and trying and advancing tech. Sure, my old Raleigh Rapide was a nice bike when I was 14, but quite honestly it’s not a patch on a modern day bike.

Similarly my first car, a Hillman Imp felt brilliant at the age of 17, but it was a sh1theap which suffered from overheating (radiator in the front, engine in the back), warped head (due to overheating), constant ignition problems due to points that would burn out regularly, a heater that was hopeless, uncomfortable, cold, unrefined, and couldn’t carry 4 adults up a hill (I kid you not, my mates would have to get out and walk up the hill to meet me at the top!) I look at entry level cars now and the development is astronomical...

So di2 may seem pointless to you, but it certainly isn’t pointless. You can carry on buying Tourney and if you are happy with that then great, others don’t share your blinkered view on development, sophistication, form and function. Each to their own.

PP

I agree with, and already said each to their own. I'm not a luddite, but also not a slave to 'progress' for its own sake. To me, no matter how much money I have in the bank, that extra .2 of a second in shifting speed would never be worth it - fair enough if it is to you, no skin off my nose. For me, and I only speak for myself, the often eye-watering cost of (increasingly) marginal gains is simply not worth it, particularly in a sport where the rider makes by far the biggest impact to speed. It also isn't always the case for the price points coming down - often the reverse occurs when tech becomes 'obsolete' and harder to find. I had a devil's own job trying to find some nice tyres for my Raleigh in a 27, particularly in the relatively small market where I live. If it weren't for the internet and international shipping I would have been a bit screwed - and even then I had to compromise a bit on what I got.

And here's another thing - tech may have improved immensely, but design has gone in reverse. Modern cars are hideous, and personally I find modern bikes extremely boring to look at too. My first, and to this date favourite, car was a (40 year old already) Triumph Herald. It broke down constantly, I'd have to run the heater in the summer to keep it cool, it could barely do 60mph or above 33mpg, and you'd have to wear earplugs on long drives to avoid hearing loss. If it weren't for the wife I'd trade my reliable, economical, safe and fast Mondeo in for another Triumph in a heartbeat. I don't like plastic dashes, I don't like the ridiculous blind spots, I don't like how it looks, and I don't like front wheel drive. Progress isn't linear.

napoleond

I very rarely pay retail for goods. I buy everything either used or in the sale. I’m happy to pay full price for those offering a good service though.