When is enough enough?

Mark-darlo

I suppose it all depends on how much you ride and what type of person you are.

Iv just got a new road bike only £500 but I'm happy with it. I'm not as serious as a lot of people are and with clothing I tend to buy off eBay and only get cheap stuff unless something looks really good and I need it. To be honest iv never had any problems with the stuff I have bought. It all feels good and I am happy with it
I dont tend to go out and try and beat times or be the quickest I can. I like to enjoy my ride and stop off at a couple of bars with mates but put good times in. My fitness levels are poor at the moment so that is my main aim at the moment to improve

Mark Alexander

Mercia Man wrote:

I’m a fine one to pontificate. I spent £7,000 on a custom Italian carbon frame, Campag Record groupset and Cycle Clinic Wheels, thanks to an unexpected six-figure inheritance. Plus I bought a camper van. I guess many forum members may have done the same if they had been in my situation.

But I certainly agree with MF. Prices for cycle clothing are now simply stupid. Middle aged men who would previously have bought fancy golf clubs are now getting into cycling and are happy to pay silly money for a bit of Chinese polyester with a zip.

Even though I am comfortably retired with cash in the bank, my personal limit is around £100 for a helmet, £120 for bib shorts, £60 for a jersey, £100 for a rain jacket and £200 for shoes.

You're right, I'd pay that for a custom bike in that situation.

Well, I agree that it's getting silly in this life of "never pay RRP". It's like buying women's sexy underwear. Pay more money for less substance. Helmets; cost of safety stops improving early. After a certain price point the priority is either does it look good or (for me) will my sunglasses fit.

Contact points are worth investing in. Club kit can nowadays cost a lot too so sometimes are not the answer they once were. When you see a guy 5 stone over weight, on £10k of Dogma in full sky kit, you can see that the salesman saw him coming but on the other hand, good on him to be half way up a mountain and still riding. buy on ebay for £5 or £300 for a pair of shoes....... Just ride.

ds2288

Vino'sGhost wrote:

The worst one is helmets, they don’t really work but we’re all so convinced they will, or they might that we go and blow loads more money.

I refused to buy another, I refused to buy gloves, my kit is largely decades old and seems to have shrunk. All except shorts, I pay for good shorts

Pretty sure after I came off the bike, my helmet and gloves did a pretty good job actually.....

PinarelloPrince

Just noticed this thread. I feel your pain fellas.

I retired from cycling just over two years ago at the ripe old age of 60. Training getting too hard, getting dropped by teammates etc.

This year ago I decided I'd return. It's been hard to get back to any dent fitness level but the hardest thing has been coming to terms with prices.

Tyres are a good example. I bought a pair of the new Pirellis. I must admit they're lovely. But £85. Really? At the same time as I bought them, my mate had two new tyres put on his transit tipper lorry. Cost him £90. If that doesn't show cyclists are being ripped off I dont know what does.

On the other hand, I've always sworn by Assos shorts but was put off by the price. I decided to buy a pair of Castelli copies from Hong Kong off eBay. They feel OK and look OK. But first ride in them (just over 50 miles) I got two sores on my ar£e. First time that's happened in 50 years of riding a bike.

Could it be that with certain things you get what you pay for and with others you get ripped off?

pblakeney

PinarelloPrince wrote:

...
On the other hand, I've always sworn by Assos shorts but was put off by the price. I decided to buy a pair of Castelli copies from Hong Kong off eBay. They feel OK and look OK. But first ride in them (just over 50 miles) I got two sores on my ar£e. First time that's happened in 50 years of riding a bike.

Could it be that with certain things you get what you pay for and with others you get ripped off?

C'est la vie.

turbotommy

The good news is there’s a wide range of bikes and kit available to suit everyone’s budget. In other good news, people choosing to spend more / less than you gives you the chance to fire a bit of judgment in their direction. Which seems to be a sport for everyone’s budget!

neeb

There's no doubt we're being ripped off by the industry, prices for top-end stuff (which is always nice to have) have skyrocketed in the last few years. But what annoys me most is the precipitous drop in value of new equipment within a year or two of purchase. It's one thing investing in a nice new bike if you know it will retain a good percentage of its value on the 2nd hand market, but nowadays you are lucky to get 25% back after a couple of years. This is largely a situation that is deliberately engineered by the industry - by devaluing older models they maintain desireability and sales on a year-to-year basis. They do this by persuading us that what was the bee's knees last year is now terribly outmoded - wheels are 2mm too narrow, frame is un-aero, gearing is so last season.. Much of this is based on completely scientifically baseless marketing claims that really need to be challenged far more critically by the cycling mediia (which isn't going to happen as long as they are financed by advertising revenue).

pblakeney

neeb wrote:

There's no doubt we're being ripped off by the industry, prices for top-end stuff (which is always nice to have) have skyrocketed in the last few years. But what annoys me most is the precipitous drop in value of new equipment within a year or two of purchase. It's one thing investing in a nice new bike if you know it will retain a good percentage of its value on the 2nd hand market, but nowadays you are lucky to get 25% back after a couple of years. This is largely a situation that is deliberately engineered by the industry - by devaluing older models they maintain desireability and sales on a year-to-year basis. They do this by persuading us that what was the bee's knees last year is now terribly outmoded - wheels are 2mm too narrow, frame is un-aero, gearing is so last season.. Much of this is based on completely scientifically baseless marketing claims that really need to be challenged far more critically by the cycling mediia (which isn't going to happen as long as they are financed by advertising revenue).

Funny that. I've not bought a new bike since 2011. And I do not plan on buying a new bike until one of the current bikes breaks. More money for holidays you see...

ben@31

FatTed wrote:

I usually divide the cost of a bike item by Kilometres or hours it will be used to justify to myself the cost.....

seconded.

I think my nice bike works out at 22p per km. Has it been worth it? Yes I've enjoyed every minute. Not that I have to justify it to anyone else.

If someone doesn't like the price of a certain product, then dont buy it. I was going to write they can always take up another sport, but there's a lot of other sports that are just the same where you can end up spending a fortune. Even those who are into hiking and camping can spend £1000s. Golf? Scuba diving? Flying lessons? Motorsport? I wonder how much people pay to go fishing? I definitely know some guys who quite easily spend £100s on beer and cigarettes and have nothing to show for it.

pblakeney

ben@31 wrote:

I think my nice bike works out at 22p per km. Has it been worth it? Yes I've enjoyed every minute. Not that I have to justify it to anyone else.

Currently @ 9.4p/km for me. Including upgrades and wear & tear.
And probably a quite a few more km to drop that even further. 8)

FatTed

I think I'm about 50c/Km

cookeeemonster

PinarelloPrince wrote:

Just noticed this thread. I feel your pain fellas.

I retired from cycling just over two years ago at the ripe old age of 60. Training getting too hard, getting dropped by teammates etc.

This year ago I decided I'd return. It's been hard to get back to any dent fitness level but the hardest thing has been coming to terms with prices.

Tyres are a good example. I bought a pair of the new Pirellis. I must admit they're lovely. But £85. Really? At the same time as I bought them, my mate had two new tyres put on his transit tipper lorry. Cost him £90. If that doesn't show cyclists are being ripped off I dont know what does.

On the other hand, I've always sworn by Assos shorts but was put off by the price. I decided to buy a pair of Castelli copies from Hong Kong off eBay. They feel OK and look OK. But first ride in them (just over 50 miles) I got two sores on my ar£e. First time that's happened in 50 years of riding a bike.

Could it be that with certain things you get what you pay for and with others you get ripped off?

In tyres...as well as kit and bikes...there's a huge amount of choice out there. Do a bit of research, use Google and you couldve got a pair of tyres more of less as good for you as the Pirellis for nearer £40. Because you chose to pay £85 then the price won't drop.

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying.

I don't get this thread. 90% of the market is low end, why the hell are people moaning at strangers that are buying with their own hard earned money. They are worse than the cycle snobs you read about on forums but never actually meet.

neeb

CookeeeMonster wrote:

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying.

Price changes have been very disproportionate at different price points / quality levels. Depnding on what you are looking to buy this may be a good thing or a bad thing.

Prices for the high-end stuff really have skyrocketed. A bike with top-notch frame and a top-notch groupset will now cost you eight grand (!!) Pretty sure it was less than half of that not so long ago. Now, you can argue that these bikes are way above where the diminishing returns curve flattens out, are just there to exploit a newly-identified wealthy mamil demographic and that trickle-down tech means that your current Ultegra mid-range bike is actually better than your top-end Dura-Ace bike of 10 years ago.. But it depends what you are looking for. If durability and mechanical funtionality are all that matter to you then I'm sure that's true, but if you want a light bike with a top-quality carbon layup and nice wheels then you are going to be paying much, much more. Obviously weight is only one factor and not important to some, but it's an interesting proxy for how one aspect of the market has changed. Ten years ago an off-the-shelf 6.8kg bike might have been had for 2 or 3 grand (correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly) but now it is three times that. Assuming the same functionality, bikes are light when they use the best quality materials and manufacturing processes. You are now paying far more if you want the best, and in terms of actual quality the best hasn't really got any better.

Livewire

You only have to compare the cost of high end bicycles to what some low end brand new cars cost to see we are being ripped off.

Enough will only be enough when people stop purchasing high end bikes, ie; never!

phreak

I wonder if this is largely a British thing rather than a European thing? Prior to the explosion in interest caused by the track/Sky success, cycling was largely a working class sport. You'd have Coppi going to races after a day delivering meat on his bike or Obree cobbling together his bike out of bits of scrap. It was an era typified by Eddy telling us to ride up grades rather than buy upgrades. It was an era where cycling was anything but cool (in Britain at least).

Now it's most definitely cool, and social media affords so many opportunities to show off. It's not a cycling I can really associate with, but then not only is the sport big enough to have plenty to appeal to different folk, but it's not really anyone else's business how they spend their money. So we have expensive bikes, kit and components, we have a huge sportive market and a burgeoning organised tour sector for folk who want to be told where to go and what to do.

PinarelloPrince

Hey Cookee, you say "In tyres...as well as kit and bikes...there's a huge amount of choice out there. Do a bit of research, use Google and you couldve got a pair of tyres more of less as good for you as the Pirellis for nearer £40. Because you chose to pay £85 then the price won't drop.

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying."

This is great news. I've only been riding bikes for 50 years but you have accumulated more knowledge and cycling savvy in just seven. That's impressive.

I couldn't be more delighted with my new Pirellis. They're the nicest feel of any tyres I've ever ridden on but haven't ridden them in wet yet.

But, I'm always keen to save a few quid. Could you let me know which are these wonder tyres that "are more or less as good for you"? At £20 each I intend to stock up if they're as good as you say they are.

Mapaputsi

phreak wrote:

I wonder if this is largely a British thing rather than a European thing? Prior to the explosion in interest caused by the track/Sky success, cycling was largely a working class sport. You'd have Coppi going to races after a day delivering meat on his bike or Obree cobbling together his bike out of bits of scrap. It was an era typified by Eddy telling us to ride up grades rather than buy upgrades. It was an era where cycling was anything but cool (in Britain at least).

Now it's most definitely cool, and social media affords so many opportunities to show off. It's not a cycling I can really associate with, but then not only is the sport big enough to have plenty to appeal to different folk, but it's not really anyone else's business how they spend their money. So we have expensive bikes, kit and components, we have a huge sportive market and a burgeoning organised tour sector for folk who want to be told where to go and what to do.

‘Cycling is the new golf’ etc. etc.

One contributing factor I often think about is the cycle-to-work scheme. This pretty much set the entry level bar at £1000. How many bikes do you see these days selling for £800/895/995 – plenty, just look at GoOutdoors ‘Calibre’ range. These are aimed at this market and will be a Frankenstein of an aluminium frame, maybe a Shimano cassette and a mish mash of different derailleurs/cranks etc. (I know because I bought one about 5 years ago from a local bike shop as a complete novice). Because of this £2000 bikes are justified, and by extension £5000+ bikes.

A £1000 bike has become the new bought second hand on gumtree because most professionals can easily afford it and spreading the cost is always easier.

Matthewfalle

Mapaputsi wrote:

phreak wrote:

I wonder if this is largely a British thing rather than a European thing? Prior to the explosion in interest caused by the track/Sky success, cycling was largely a working class sport. You'd have Coppi going to races after a day delivering meat on his bike or Obree cobbling together his bike out of bits of scrap. It was an era typified by Eddy telling us to ride up grades rather than buy upgrades. It was an era where cycling was anything but cool (in Britain at least).

Now it's most definitely cool, and social media affords so many opportunities to show off. It's not a cycling I can really associate with, but then not only is the sport big enough to have plenty to appeal to different folk, but it's not really anyone else's business how they spend their money. So we have expensive bikes, kit and components, we have a huge sportive market and a burgeoning organised tour sector for folk who want to be told where to go and what to do.

‘Cycling is the new golf’ etc. etc.

One contributing factor I often think about is the cycle-to-work scheme. This pretty much set the entry level bar at £1000. How many bikes do you see these days selling for £800/895/995 – plenty, just look at GoOutdoors ‘Calibre’ range. These are aimed at this market and will be a Frankenstein of an aluminium frame, maybe a Shimano cassette and a mish mash of different derailleurs/cranks etc. (I know because I bought one about 5 years ago from a local bike shop as a complete novice). Because of this £2000 bikes are justified, and by extension £5000+ bikes.

A £1000 bike has become the new bought second hand on gumtree because most professionals can easily afford it and spreading the cost is always easier.

caveat Emptor?

Boardman, Ribble, Planet X, Evans, etc all do really good C2W bikes.

loads of other places do to.

MF reckons C2W was excellent.

Mapaputsi

Matthewfalle wrote:

Mapaputsi wrote:

phreak wrote:

I wonder if this is largely a British thing rather than a European thing? Prior to the explosion in interest caused by the track/Sky success, cycling was largely a working class sport. You'd have Coppi going to races after a day delivering meat on his bike or Obree cobbling together his bike out of bits of scrap. It was an era typified by Eddy telling us to ride up grades rather than buy upgrades. It was an era where cycling was anything but cool (in Britain at least).

Now it's most definitely cool, and social media affords so many opportunities to show off. It's not a cycling I can really associate with, but then not only is the sport big enough to have plenty to appeal to different folk, but it's not really anyone else's business how they spend their money. So we have expensive bikes, kit and components, we have a huge sportive market and a burgeoning organised tour sector for folk who want to be told where to go and what to do.

‘Cycling is the new golf’ etc. etc.

One contributing factor I often think about is the cycle-to-work scheme. This pretty much set the entry level bar at £1000. How many bikes do you see these days selling for £800/895/995 – plenty, just look at GoOutdoors ‘Calibre’ range. These are aimed at this market and will be a Frankenstein of an aluminium frame, maybe a Shimano cassette and a mish mash of different derailleurs/cranks etc. (I know because I bought one about 5 years ago from a local bike shop as a complete novice). Because of this £2000 bikes are justified, and by extension £5000+ bikes.

A £1000 bike has become the new bought second hand on gumtree because most professionals can easily afford it and spreading the cost is always easier.

caveat Emptor?

Boardman, Ribble, Planet X, Evans, etc all do really good C2W bikes.

loads of other places do to.

MF reckons C2W was excellent.

I'm not saying they don't - only that the £1,000 price mark has become the beginners/entry level price, driving up everything else!

Matthewfalle

Mapaputsi wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Mapaputsi wrote:

phreak wrote:

I wonder if this is largely a British thing rather than a European thing? Prior to the explosion in interest caused by the track/Sky success, cycling was largely a working class sport. You'd have Coppi going to races after a day delivering meat on his bike or Obree cobbling together his bike out of bits of scrap. It was an era typified by Eddy telling us to ride up grades rather than buy upgrades. It was an era where cycling was anything but cool (in Britain at least).

Now it's most definitely cool, and social media affords so many opportunities to show off. It's not a cycling I can really associate with, but then not only is the sport big enough to have plenty to appeal to different folk, but it's not really anyone else's business how they spend their money. So we have expensive bikes, kit and components, we have a huge sportive market and a burgeoning organised tour sector for folk who want to be told where to go and what to do.

‘Cycling is the new golf’ etc. etc.

One contributing factor I often think about is the cycle-to-work scheme. This pretty much set the entry level bar at £1000. How many bikes do you see these days selling for £800/895/995 – plenty, just look at GoOutdoors ‘Calibre’ range. These are aimed at this market and will be a Frankenstein of an aluminium frame, maybe a Shimano cassette and a mish mash of different derailleurs/cranks etc. (I know because I bought one about 5 years ago from a local bike shop as a complete novice). Because of this £2000 bikes are justified, and by extension £5000+ bikes.

A £1000 bike has become the new bought second hand on gumtree because most professionals can easily afford it and spreading the cost is always easier.

caveat Emptor?

Boardman, Ribble, Planet X, Evans, etc all do really good C2W bikes.

loads of other places do to.

MF reckons C2W was excellent.

I'm not saying they don't - only that the £1,000 price mark has become the beginners/entry level price, driving up everything else!

no it hasn't.

millions of decent things out there for less.

its a convenient amount to set C2W.

bristolpete

neeb wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying.

Price changes have been very disproportionate at different price points / quality levels. Depnding on what you are looking to buy this may be a good thing or a bad thing.

Prices for the high-end stuff really have skyrocketed. A bike with top-notch frame and a top-notch groupset will now cost you eight grand (!!) Pretty sure it was less than half of that not so long ago. Now, you can argue that these bikes are way above where the diminishing returns curve flattens out, are just there to exploit a newly-identified wealthy mamil demographic and that trickle-down tech means that your current Ultegra mid-range bike is actually better than your top-end Dura-Ace bike of 10 years ago.. But it depends what you are looking for. If durability and mechanical funtionality are all that matter to you then I'm sure that's true, but if you want a light bike with a top-quality carbon layup and nice wheels then you are going to be paying much, much more. Obviously weight is only one factor and not important to some, but it's an interesting proxy for how one aspect of the market has changed. Ten years ago an off-the-shelf 6.8kg bike might have been had for 2 or 3 grand (correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly) but now it is three times that. Assuming the same functionality, bikes are light when they use the best quality materials and manufacturing processes. You are now paying far more if you want the best, and in terms of actual quality the best hasn't really got any better.

True, but Giant are reigning it back with the TCR SL R8000 Ultegra bike with carbon wheels. In relative terms to this thread it is a bargain.

norvernrob

ben@31 wrote:

FatTed wrote:

I usually divide the cost of a bike item by Kilometres or hours it will be used to justify to myself the cost.....

seconded.

I think my nice bike works out at 22p per km. Has it been worth it? Yes I've enjoyed every minute. Not that I have to justify it to anyone else.

If someone doesn't like the price of a certain product, then dont buy it. I was going to write they can always take up another sport, but there's a lot of other sports that are just the same where you can end up spending a fortune. Even those who are into hiking and camping can spend £1000s. Golf? Scuba diving? Flying lessons? Motorsport? I wonder how much people pay to go fishing? I definitely know some guys who quite easily spend £100s on beer and cigarettes and have nothing to show for it.

Any hobby is the same. You can very easily spend £5k on a fishing setup, in fact you can spend more than that on one pole. I know people who have spent thousands upon thousands on LEGO. £10k on a stripped out track Clio that you’ll never see half the money back.

My best bike currently stands me at around £1 per km, but they’re the good km’s. It’s spending 3 weeks of the next month in the Alps, whereas my much cheaper per km commuter just does the boring miles day in day out. Both value per km but both in a different way.

cookeeemonster

PinarelloPrince wrote:

Hey Cookee, you say "In tyres...as well as kit and bikes...there's a huge amount of choice out there. Do a bit of research, use Google and you couldve got a pair of tyres more of less as good for you as the Pirellis for nearer £40. Because you chose to pay £85 then the price won't drop.

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying."

This is great news. I've only been riding bikes for 50 years but you have accumulated more knowledge and cycling savvy in just seven. That's impressive.

I couldn't be more delighted with my new Pirellis. They're the nicest feel of any tyres I've ever ridden on but haven't ridden them in wet yet.

But, I'm always keen to save a few quid. Could you let me know which are these wonder tyres that "are more or less as good for you"? At £20 each I intend to stock up if they're as good as you say they are.

Do it yourself mr knowitall. You've 50 years of knowledge after all.

matt_n-2

neeb wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

I don't believe prices have skyrocketed in the nearly 7 years I've been cycling...but choice has. Big time. Cheaper brands have had to up their game and yeah, there are more expensive options out there that nobody is forced into buying.

Price changes have been very disproportionate at different price points / quality levels. Depnding on what you are looking to buy this may be a good thing or a bad thing.

Prices for the high-end stuff really have skyrocketed. A bike with top-notch frame and a top-notch groupset will now cost you eight grand (!!) Pretty sure it was less than half of that not so long ago.

Not sure its quite doubled, there are probably examples either way though.

Take the Colnago C59 as one example, launched in 2010, the frame and fork had an rrp of £3499.

The new C64 has an rrp of £4099.

Build either of those up with top flight groupsets, wheels and finishing kit and the price wouldn't be much different.

ilovegrace

Just stopped of for a coffee this morning and parked in the rack was a trek emonda , sram e tap all singing and dancing about £10,000 plus.
Picked it up feather light and looked stunning . Then i thought, my car honda civic 2015 23, 000 on the clock when I bought it for , you guessed it just over £10,000 .
Cycling is to expensive , where on earth did you get that idea !!!?regards
ILG

Matthewfalle

ilovegrace wrote:

Just stopped of for a coffee this morning and parked in the rack was a trek emonda , sram e tap all singing and dancing about £10,000 plus.
Picked it up feather light and looked stunning . Then i thought, my car honda civic 2015 23, 0000 on the clock when I bought it for , you guessed it just over £10,000 .
Cycling is to expensive , where on earth did you get that idea !!!?regards
ILG

in this case MF is upset about a few things.

1. they spent how much on a Trek?
2. They spent how much on such an ugly bike?

keef66

The bike industry is no different from any other in pursuing our increasing disposable income. There's a bewildering choice of bikes and kit at a wide range of price points; only you can know how much you're comfortable paying for anything, and whether you feel it represents value for money. If too few people bought the expensive stuff it would either disappear or come down in price...

When I returned to road cycling 11 years ago I was looking at an alu frame / carbon fork / 105 for about £800 or a carbon framed bike for over £1000. So I think at that price point little has changed. What has happened is the stretching of the upper limits, aided in part by the proliferation of carbon and the introduction of electronic groupsets, GPS tech etc, and in part by the success of BC / Sky which has broadened the appeal of cycling so it's no longer just the preserve of the working class.

My brother-in-law's a prime example. City trader, did the London-to-Brighton ride one year. Bought himself an Orca which now sits gathering dust... :roll:

APIII

I bought my first decent road bike in 2003 from Sigma Sport, a Pinarello Prince. It was built up with the 'new' Record 10sp and Mavic Kysriums. Cost was £3,300. Upgraded in 2010 to a Time RXR from my local shop, built up with Record 11sp and a few other trick bits. Cost was circa £5.5k. I always thought the frame should be the bulk of the cost of a bike, but this is what seems to have changed in recent years with electronic groups and carbon wheels pushing the overall cost up to the £10k mark. If I were in the market now for another top end bike I wouldn't expect to pay much more than in 2010 as I would probably spec Chorus and aluminium rims as I know they offer the best VFM for me having tried the more expensive alternatives,

Hooptie

I rode a vintage road bike for about 14 years. Then I got a GT Grade. It was bulky, heavy, and not much fun to ride. After a year and a half of that, and lusting after a single bike--Kestrel Talon--me, the money, and a Kestrel Talon X were finally in the same place at the same time. So I test rode it and bought it. I got the bike I wanted and I don't want anything beyond it. MSRP is $1800 USD and I got it for $1200. Seeing as I'm turning 40 this year and don't race, that's as much as I'll ever spend on a bike. And fortunately, rain isn't a common occurrence where I live, so not being able to stay off the thing isn't an issue insofar as cleaning. As an added bonus, it's the same color as my GT, so all my kit works with it. For me, that's enough.

zest28

Prices have skyrocketed because now you have electronic groupset, high-end carbon wheels and much higher quality carbon than in the past.

$3000 buys you a very nice carbon fibre race bike with mechanical groupset which is still affordable.