Power meters in pro racing

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  • shockedsoshocked
    shockedsoshocked Posts: 4,021
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:
    jimmythecuckoo wrote:
    I was thinking about this watching (of all things) an advert for a betting website last night.

    The crux of the advert was that despite technology, sport is not all about algorthyms and hasn't been reduced to a maths problem, it still involves humans.

    Yes I thought very much the same on seeing the same advert. The whole "radios make the riders into robots" argument.

    In 2013 when Belkin and Saxo lit it up in a crosswind, at the most crucial moment we saw one rider speaking on the radio and one making a split second decision. Which one won the stage?

    The one who got a hand sling from a team mate? X

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
    "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"

    PTP Runner Up 2015
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    green_mark wrote:
    Think back to the exciting days before power meters, when a team like Banesto would set a punishing pace up front all day and neutralise all attacks, and then Miguel Indurain would dominate in the time trial to take the win.
    That was so much more exciting than Froome and Dumoulin...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    redvision wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    "Confused" was deliberate - my sarcasm was prompted by being mystified at Red's thinking that power meters had prevented exciting recount from happening.

    The Giro was probably the most exciting GT for a fair few years. But the excitement was in large due to the attacks by and then decline of Yates. He was what made the giro. Had he not been there it would have boiled down to a battle between the two power meter addicted riders of froome and dumoulin - which is exactly what everyone was predicting before the race started.

    I never said pm's stop excitement happening, i said that they control races too much.

    How do you know this? Froome was considerably down on Dumoulin - do you know that would have been different without Yates? Do you know Carapaz wouldn't have made more attacks? Lopez?
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    redvision wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:

    Racing should be natural and on feel. I just don't think it's right that a stage can essentially be won the night before by the coaches.

    When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?
    What do you think happens in a sprint? Are they looking at their Garmin trying to match the numbers?

    Sagan (arguably the best all rounder in the sport) doesn't even train to power.

    Contador in an interview said he only used his power numbers to gauge how he felt. If his legs felt bad but his power was low he knew it was a bad day.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    birdie23 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:

    Racing should be natural and on feel. I just don't think it's right that a stage can essentially be won the night before by the coaches.

    When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?
    What do you think happens in a sprint? Are they looking at their Garmin trying to match the numbers?

    Sagan (arguably the best all rounder in the sport) doesn't even train to power.

    Contador in an interview said he only used his power numbers to gauge how he felt. If his legs felt bad but his power was low he knew it was a bad day.

    Exactly, and Contador was one of the most exciting riders to watch, because he was always willing to just attack and go, and didn't ride to the power meter, rode just on feel. And that is the whole point of this thread.

    Regarding sprints, it's not really relevant as a pm wouldn't make a bit of difference, apart from telling the rider what figure he had hit.

    Sagan is an interesting one because arguably the one day classics are the most exciting races and one of the possible reasons for that is as they are over a day riders don't have to worry too much about going in to the red, hence why sagan and other successful riders in classics don't rely on the pm like GT riders seem to. And again reinforces my belief that if power meters were not present in pro tour races riders would ride on instinct, resulting in much more excitement for spectators.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    redvision wrote:
    birdie23 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:

    Racing should be natural and on feel. I just don't think it's right that a stage can essentially be won the night before by the coaches.

    When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?
    What do you think happens in a sprint? Are they looking at their Garmin trying to match the numbers?

    Sagan (arguably the best all rounder in the sport) doesn't even train to power.

    Contador in an interview said he only used his power numbers to gauge how he felt. If his legs felt bad but his power was low he knew it was a bad day.

    Exactly, and Contador was one of the most exciting riders to watch, because he was always willing to just attack and go, and didn't ride to the power meter, rode just on feel. And that is the whole point of this thread.

    Regarding sprints, it's not really relevant as a pm wouldn't make a bit of difference, apart from telling the rider what figure he had hit.

    Sagan is an interesting one because arguably the one day classics are the most exciting races and one of the possible reasons for that is as they are over a day riders don't have to worry too much about going in to the red, hence why sagan and other successful riders in classics don't rely on the pm like GT riders seem to. And again reinforces my belief that if power meters were not present in pro tour races riders would ride on instinct, resulting in much more excitement for spectators.
    But you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if the GC man gets given a power number that he should be able to do and that should win him the race if, on the day, he doesn't have the legs to do it.

    Also, the plans go out of the window if someone else attacks and looks like they'll stay away. It's not like they have to submit their plan in advance and if they exceed the power they wanted to do they get DQ'd
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    birdie23 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    birdie23 wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    ShutupJens wrote:

    Racing should be natural and on feel. I just don't think it's right that a stage can essentially be won the night before by the coaches.

    When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?
    What do you think happens in a sprint? Are they looking at their Garmin trying to match the numbers?

    Sagan (arguably the best all rounder in the sport) doesn't even train to power.

    Contador in an interview said he only used his power numbers to gauge how he felt. If his legs felt bad but his power was low he knew it was a bad day.

    Exactly, and Contador was one of the most exciting riders to watch, because he was always willing to just attack and go, and didn't ride to the power meter, rode just on feel. And that is the whole point of this thread.

    Regarding sprints, it's not really relevant as a pm wouldn't make a bit of difference, apart from telling the rider what figure he had hit.

    Sagan is an interesting one because arguably the one day classics are the most exciting races and one of the possible reasons for that is as they are over a day riders don't have to worry too much about going in to the red, hence why sagan and other successful riders in classics don't rely on the pm like GT riders seem to. And again reinforces my belief that if power meters were not present in pro tour races riders would ride on instinct, resulting in much more excitement for spectators.
    But you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if the GC man gets given a power number that he should be able to do and that should win him the race if, on the day, he doesn't have the legs to do it.

    Also, the plans go out of the window if someone else attacks and looks like they'll stay away. It's not like they have to submit their plan in advance and if they exceed the power they wanted to do they get DQ'd

    Not at all. At the moment there are very few attacks due to teams like sky riding to power making it easy for them (relatively speaking) to use their power output to control the race. And when a rider is brave enough to attack they just stare down at their computers maintaining their power as per DS instructions, knowing that the attacker will only be able to stay away if they put themselves in to the red and beyond, which they will pay for the following days (Yates).

    And as frequently shown, those top gt guys who depend on racing on power output generally don't have off days because they can see how hard they push and can prevent themselves going into the red. Hence this discussion on why pm's are restricting/ controlling racing too much.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    You seriously think that no power meters would stop teams using the tactic of burning off climbing domestiques to dissuade attacks? The point about them is that they operate at a level they can't sustain to the finish line, so they would relatively easily do it by perceived exertion.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    redvision wrote:
    At the moment there are very few attacks due to teams like sky riding to power...

    Do you really think Sky couldn't drill it on the front of the peloton like they did on the bottom of Finestre without power metres? The power metres are not what enable Sky to do that. Teams have done that for years and years.

    There are no attacks because Sky ride hard and people can't get away. They can ride hard becasue Sky have got a load of super domestiques that could be GT contenders in other teams. Or do you think power metre in this instance gives power rather than simply being something that measures power output?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    You seriously think that no power meters would stop teams using the tactic of burning off climbing domestiques to dissuade attacks? The point about them is that they operate at a level they can't sustain to the finish line, so they would relatively easily do it by perceived exertion.

    It would mean riders have to ride by feel which i think would make GT's less predictable and return racing to a more exciting spectacle.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    redvision wrote:
    Hence this discussion on why pm's are restricting/ controlling racing too much.

    It's not really a discussion though, it's just you repeating the same thing over and over while a variety of people disagree with you.

    As mentioned by someone else, Banesto used to ride just the same in the pre PM era. It's having one team who have both an incentive to ride defensively and can afford to put a stack of very strong guys on the front which leads to suffocating racing, not PMs. Although it may help them to achieve it.

    The idea that racing used to be loads more exciting is a bit of rose tinted vision, I think, given we have just had one of the most exciting GTs in many people's memory.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    redvision wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    You seriously think that no power meters would stop teams using the tactic of burning off climbing domestiques to dissuade attacks? The point about them is that they operate at a level they can't sustain to the finish line, so they would relatively easily do it by perceived exertion.

    It would mean riders have to ride by feel which i think would make GT's less predictable and return racing to a more exciting spectacle.

    It would have no effect on stopping the Sky train.

    And weird time to claim that GTs need to go back to when they were an exciting spectacle.
  • redvision
    redvision Posts: 2,958
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Hence this discussion on why pm's are restricting/ controlling racing too much.

    It's not really a discussion though, it's just you repeating the same thing over and over while a variety of people disagree with you.

    As mentioned by someone else, Banesto used to ride just the same in the pre PM era. It's having one team who have both an incentive to ride defensively and can afford to put a stack of very strong guys on the front which leads to suffocating racing, not PMs. Although it may help them to achieve it.

    The idea that racing used to be loads more exciting is a bit of rose tinted vision, I think, given we have just had one of the most exciting GTs in many people's memory.

    It was exciting because of Yates, who came out of the blue (wasn't fancied by anyone pre race).
    In gt terms it was the best for a long time though.
    Look back through the gt rating thread and the last few have been rated as bog average.

    It is only my opinion but the sport is openly trying to make changes to improve the spectacle and reach a younger audience. Will that happen if the power meter team trains continue?? Personally I doubt it.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Still ignoring the point that teams have been running trains since well before pms were used. The Indurain years were every bit as boring as (say) 2012.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Last year's Giro was pretty good too. And the Giro in 2016. The 2016 Vuelta wasn't entirely predictable. 2015 Vuelta came down to an attack breaking Dumoulin on the last mountain stage.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    redvision wrote:
    It is only my opinion but the sport is openly trying to make changes to improve the spectacle and reach a younger audience. Will that happen if the power meter team trains continue?? Personally I doubt it.

    If your argument was that you would prefer leading riders to be more tired towards the end of a three week tour, and this is more likely if they don't know whether they are going into the red too often, then you'd maybe have a point. I wouldn't agree with it still. Or that it would make a TT a more pure test of a rider's ability, that may be true. I think it would work to the advantage of the better TT riders even more.

    But the climbing trains would still be there just the same without power meters.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    It is only my opinion but the sport is openly trying to make changes to improve the spectacle and reach a younger audience. Will that happen if the power meter team trains continue?? Personally I doubt it.

    If your argument was that you would prefer leading riders to be more tired towards the end of a three week tour, and this is more likely if they don't know whether they are going into the red too often, then you'd maybe have a point. I wouldn't agree with it still. Or that it would make a TT a more pure test of a rider's ability, that may be true. I think it would work to the advantage of the better TT riders even more.

    But the climbing trains would still be there just the same without power meters.

    Heart rate monitors don't do a terrible job of that either.
  • ShutupJens
    ShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    It is only my opinion but the sport is openly trying to make changes to improve the spectacle and reach a younger audience. Will that happen if the power meter team trains continue?? Personally I doubt it.

    If your argument was that you would prefer leading riders to be more tired towards the end of a three week tour, and this is more likely if they don't know whether they are going into the red too often, then you'd maybe have a point. I wouldn't agree with it still. Or that it would make a TT a more pure test of a rider's ability, that may be true. I think it would work to the advantage of the better TT riders even more.

    But the climbing trains would still be there just the same without power meters.

    Heart rate monitors don't do a terrible job of that either.

    Right well ban them too, right? Too predictable! Not natural! Anyone who has tried to make any money from betting on cycling would know that racing is not predictable in the slightest
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stage distances & route choice are entirely more impactful on the quality of the racing than anything else and is massively under examined.

    Followed by team sizes.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stage distances & route choice are entirely more impactful on the quality of the racing than anything else and is massively under examined.

    Followed by team sizes.
    And weather
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,649
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stage distances & route choice are entirely more impactful on the quality of the racing than anything else and is massively under examined.

    Followed by team sizes.
    And weather

    Think which riders that turn up, where it is on their schedule and priority is probably quite important too.

    The Giro was pre-billed as Dumoulin V Froome and ended up that way in the end. But Yates gave us a glimpse of other possibilities. There's almost always an in-form climber from the second tier that looks like he just might upset the apple-cart, make it his year.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stage distances & route choice are entirely more impactful on the quality of the racing than anything else and is massively under examined.

    Followed by team sizes.
    And weather

    Think which riders that turn up, where it is on their schedule and priority is probably quite important too.

    The Giro was pre-billed as Dumoulin V Froome and ended up that way in the end. But Yates gave us a glimpse of other possibilities. There's almost always an in-form climber from the second tier that looks like he just might upset the apple-cart, make it his year.

    Can have all the diffferebt combinations turn up if you want but if it’s 200km in Qatar on a no wind day I know how the race is gonna pan out.
    _
  • ShutupJens
    ShutupJens Posts: 1,373
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stage distances & route choice are entirely more impactful on the quality of the racing than anything else and is massively under examined.

    Followed by team sizes.
    And weather

    Think which riders that turn up, where it is on their schedule and priority is probably quite important too.

    The Giro was pre-billed as Dumoulin V Froome and ended up that way in the end. But Yates gave us a glimpse of other possibilities. There's almost always an in-form climber from the second tier that looks like he just might upset the apple-cart, make it his year.

    Can have all the diffferebt combinations turn up if you want but if it’s 200km in Qatar on a no wind day I know how the race is gonna pan out.

    Whereas it's very difficult to predict the manner in which Paris Roubaix is likely to be raced. Power meters have nothing to do with it
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    It's clear with the likes of the super short stage at the Tour this year thT organizers are trying to keep the spectical exciting but I don't think power meters is one of the defining elements.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/

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