Power meters in pro racing

slowbike

Rick Chasey wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I think I'd prefer a selective use of radios - not a complete ban.

if the team cars couldn't transmit to the riders then you wouldn't have the DSs spelling out game plans on the go - unless they earmarked a rider to sit with the team car and relay the info forward. So there wouldn't be feeds from who is in the break, how fast they're going or how well they're working togther - unless you had a man in the break to feed it back (and you were in range). You could still have the team cars being able to hear their riders - so the riders can request items or ask for directions (then send a man back - or I'm sure they'd have other ways of passing info out - I can think of a few now)

Would it stop the smaller teams getting away? It would make the peloton more nervous sure, they'd have to watch who went off - nothing to stop them relaying that back to the team car and getting updates from the team car via a messenger.

You want more exciting racing? Is it exciting watching a breakaway go up the road -knowing the GC teams aren't interested and will just pace themselves with their immediate rivals - or knowing the sprint teams will time it to catch them in the last few KMs (most of the time)

I don't think DS' give massive game plans over radio.

When we saw bans for radios all racing under WT level, it didn't change much apart from specific instances, and they relate to rider information.

For example, your rider is in the leading group in the final 20km of a one dayer, along with one other rider, who is a faster finisher.

behind you have another rider in a group of 2, but he is faster than all of them on paper, but is actually swinging and missing turns because he's so pooped.

With a radio, the DS could tell the lead rider whether to wait or to push on because his teammate is pooped.

Without a radio, the rider will have to make a tactical decision himself with less than perfect information.

Now, it's a question whether that makes for better or worse racing.

I tend to find the "fog of war" rewards more attacking riding, but that's just my take.

There are also instances with mechanicals etc that fewer teammates will be aware of lead rider misshaps and that, arguably is a real drawback of having no radios.

yup - that would be with no radios - but what about if radios were available 2 way for the riders and just receive for the team car ...
The lead rider could find out from the team mate that he'd have no support - but couldn't find out the DS's view on his direct competitor - so he'd have to work that one out himself.

I don't really watch enough to know how much input the DSs have to the race - and even then I assume it's different team to team and even between riders - we know that Sky pre-planned that 80km attack and Froome would've known what effort level to put in - but he couldn't have known what was happening behind him without input from the team car as he didn't have a team mate in that group (that I recall) - so he would've had to have expended more energy in keeping tabs on the gap and identifying any riders making it back up to him - rather than (what I assumed happened) listening to his team car giving him frequent updates and assuring him that the plan was currently working.

The_Boy

RichN95 wrote:

Heart rate motors are a better way to judge exertion anyway.

And virtually undetectable according to a Hungarian I was speaking to at the weekend...

r0bh

redvision wrote:

True. That said, TD is a good example of my argument as he never responds to big attacks because he cant. What he does do, and does very well, is ride to power knowing that by doing so he will reel in the attacker - which makes for boring riding (IMO)

You've contradicted yourself nicely here. You say "he never responds to big attacks because he cant" - how would that change if he wasn't using a powermeter? He's not suddenly going to change into an attacking pure climber. He is riding in the best way to suit his physiology i.e. he can sustain a high effort level for a long period of time (hence why he is world TT champion) but is not so good at short very high bursts. He is your classic "diesel" rider, and having a powermeter or not won't make a jot of difference to this.

markwb79

redvision wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

redvision wrote:

Indeed but then how do you account for Tom Dumoulin saying that he didn't need to worry about what anyone did on the first big mountain (i can't remember which stage it was) as his coaches had worked out the exact wattage he needed to produce to get up the climb and exactly how many minutes it would take.

If that isn't controlled racing I don't know what is.

He also correctly predicted the exact place Froome would attack. It did him sod all use though.

It's not power meters you are objecting to, what you are really objecting to is common sense.

No, not at all. I'm not objecting to power meters, i use one and know how beneficial they are. What i am saying is i think racing would be more interesting, more enjoyable and more natural if power meters were not in the pro races.
If riders attacked on feel rather than data then there would always be the increased excitement of will he stay away until the finish or will he blow a gasket. Plus it then puts the same question to the chasers - do they chase for fear he could have the legs to win, or do they sit back and hope he blows up before the finish.

At the moment power meters mean that if anyone does jump off the front the chasers can just look down at their pm data and hold a tempo close to their ftp, knowing that the man off the front won't be able to maintain it and they will gradually pull him back. Sky have mastered this tactic. They ride to power and at such an output no-one stands much of a chance of attacking and staying away.

Does that mean you stopped watching as soon as Froome attacked?
I mean, he was ahead, looking at his power meter. So surely that meant the race was over?

above_the_cows

The_Boy wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Heart rate motors are a better way to judge exertion anyway.

And virtually undetectable according to a Hungarian I was speaking to at the weekend...

That's going to be the new conspiracy isn't it.

FROOME HAS A PACEMAKER!!!!!!*







*Called Wout Poels.

redvision

r0bh wrote:

redvision wrote:

True. That said, TD is a good example of my argument as he never responds to big attacks because he cant. What he does do, and does very well, is ride to power knowing that by doing so he will reel in the attacker - which makes for boring riding (IMO)

You've contradicted yourself nicely here. You say "he never responds to big attacks because he cant" - how would that change if he wasn't using a powermeter? He's not suddenly going to change into an attacking pure climber. He is riding in the best way to suit his physiology i.e. he can sustain a high effort level for a long period of time (hence why he is world TT champion) but is not so good at short very high bursts. He is your classic "diesel" rider, and having a powermeter or not won't make a jot of difference to this.

It's not a contradiction.
What I'm saying is how much more exciting would it be if he didn't have the data available to him of what watts he was putting out? Then he would have to use his instincts and feel to decide how to chase down the attack. Rather than knowing that he needs to stick to xxx watts to reach the top of the climb in the most efficient time (for him).

Personally i think it would mean more attacking, more excitement and more unpredictability.

kingstongraham

On stage 19, he was riding like that - the other three were attacking, then he'd come back to them, then attacking again, he'd come back to them. Eventually he ran out of gas on that climb anyway. I didn't find that dull in the slightest.

r0bh

redvision wrote:

r0bh wrote:

redvision wrote:

True. That said, TD is a good example of my argument as he never responds to big attacks because he cant. What he does do, and does very well, is ride to power knowing that by doing so he will reel in the attacker - which makes for boring riding (IMO)

You've contradicted yourself nicely here. You say "he never responds to big attacks because he cant" - how would that change if he wasn't using a powermeter? He's not suddenly going to change into an attacking pure climber. He is riding in the best way to suit his physiology i.e. he can sustain a high effort level for a long period of time (hence why he is world TT champion) but is not so good at short very high bursts. He is your classic "diesel" rider, and having a powermeter or not won't make a jot of difference to this.

It's not a contradiction.
What I'm saying is how much more exciting would it be if he didn't have the data available to him of what watts he was putting out? Then he would have to use his instincts and feel to decide how to chase down the attack.

And his instincts would tell him to ride at a high sustainable effort to gradually reel back in the attackers, because that is the most efficient way to do it. What I'm saying is he would ride no differently to how he currently is, because to ride any differently would be against his best interests.

Vino'sGhost

power meters are all well and good on a long drag up a mountain but if your caught out and other teams force you to ride you can forget whatever pre ordained plan you have cause you might not even get to the foot of the climb before blowing.

Teams and riders have learned how to deal with teams riding to power. It's called tactics.

m.r.m.

The genie cannot be put back into the bottle, so why the fight against windmills?

redvision

r0bh wrote:

And his instincts would tell him to ride at a high sustainable effort to gradually reel back in the attackers, because that is the most efficient way to do it. What I'm saying is he would ride no differently to how he currently is, because to ride any differently would be against his best interests.

Exactly! He would ride as he FELT was needed, riding by feel. And that's natural racing, rather than just looking down at his gps and seeing exactly what power he is putting out. By riding on feel it's about the riders ability to judge efforts.

shirley_basso

But you said they ride to what the DS tells them?

redvision

Shirley Basso wrote:

But you said they ride to what the DS tells them?

I said they ride at the moment to the power output set by the coaches/DS.

If pm data wasn't there they would ride by feel and instinct.

No_Ta_Doctor

Personally I'm not convinced that removing information from riders (whether by removing radios or power meters) does anything to encourage attacking racing or risk taking. You're just as likely to find that erring on the side of caution, conservative riding, wins out. A power meter, for instance, can be used by a rider to say "I know I can put out this number for x minutes, it'll hurt but it won't break me" - that's a great tool to have. He might otherwise ride a few percent under, just to be sure.

ShutupJens

No tA Doctor wrote:

Personally I'm not convinced that removing information from riders (whether by removing radios or power meters) does anything to encourage attacking racing or risk taking. You're just as likely to find that erring on the side of caution, conservative riding, wins out. A power meter, for instance, can be used by a rider to say "I know I can put out this number for x minutes, it'll hurt but it won't break me" - that's a great tool to have. He might otherwise ride a few percent under, just to be sure.

100% agree. Grand tours are very hard, you don't want riders thinking they can't ride hard cos they feel knackered and they have no data to review after stages etc

This tinkering with racing would only make the boring races more boring, and the exciting ones fewer and far between imo

PiccolaAquila

Personally I don't think removing PMs would make much, if any difference at all. I've been using a PM for the last 3/4 years for training and racing, even I can say within ~20w or so what I'm riding at, so the pros can only be even more in touch with their perceived effort. When training a PM is priceless for making gains in fitness, or building towards a specific target. When it comes to racing however I tend not to pay much attention to the numbers, until afterwards when analysing the data. It's a case of riding hard/fast enough to stay in the race, or don't and be dropped. Racing is very much still about instinct, with a PM, or not. Making split decisions on what attacks to follow and which to leave (tactics) are far more important than what figure a PM may be saying.

DeVlaeminck

M.R.M. wrote:

The genie cannot be put back into the bottle, so why the fight against windmills?

Of course it could be.

jimmythecuckoo

I was thinking about this watching (of all things) an advert for a betting website last night.

The crux of the advert was that despite technology, sport is not all about algorthyms and hasn't been reduced to a maths problem, it still involves humans.

ShutupJens

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

I was thinking about this watching (of all things) an advert for a betting website last night.

The crux of the advert was that despite technology, sport is not all about algorthyms and hasn't been reduced to a maths problem, it still involves humans.

Yes I thought very much the same on seeing the same advert. The whole "radios make the riders into robots" argument.

In 2013 when Belkin and Saxo lit it up in a crosswind, at the most crucial moment we saw one rider speaking on the radio and one making a split second decision. Which one won the stage?

takethehighroad

ShutupJens wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

I was thinking about this watching (of all things) an advert for a betting website last night.

The crux of the advert was that despite technology, sport is not all about algorthyms and hasn't been reduced to a maths problem, it still involves humans.

Yes I thought very much the same on seeing the same advert. The whole "radios make the riders into robots" argument.

In 2013 when Belkin and Saxo lit it up in a crosswind, at the most crucial moment we saw one rider speaking on the radio and one making a split second decision. Which one won the stage?

The one who got a hand sling from a team mate? X

john1967

bompington wrote:

redvision wrote:

When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?

Quite right. I, for one, was deeply disappointed by the complete lack of racing in this year's Giro :?

did we watch the same race?

bompington

john1967 wrote:

bompington wrote:

redvision wrote:

When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?

Quite right. I, for one, was deeply disappointed by the complete lack of racing in this year's Giro :?

did we watch the same race?

Do we have the same understanding of sarcasm?

RichN95.

bompington wrote:

john1967 wrote:

bompington wrote:

redvision wrote:

When you think of riders just obeying the power data set by the coaches where is the racing?

Quite right. I, for one, was deeply disappointed by the complete lack of racing in this year's Giro :?

did we watch the same race?

Do we have the same understanding of sarcasm?

You used the wrong emoji. You went for 'confused'. You needed 'wink' or the unsubtle 'rolling eyes' :roll:

bompington

"Confused" was deliberate - my sarcasm was prompted by being mystified at Red's thinking that power meters had prevented exciting racing from happening.

green_mark

Think back to the exciting days before power meters, when a team like Banesto would set a punishing pace up front all day and neutralise all attacks, and then Miguel Indurain would dominate in the time trial to take the win.

redvision

bompington wrote:

"Confused" was deliberate - my sarcasm was prompted by being mystified at Red's thinking that power meters had prevented exciting recount from happening.

The Giro was probably the most exciting GT for a fair few years. But the excitement was in large due to the attacks by and then decline of Yates. He was what made the giro. Had he not been there it would have boiled down to a battle between the two power meter addicted riders of froome and dumoulin - which is exactly what everyone was predicting before the race started.

I never said pm's stop excitement happening, i said that they control races too much.

shirley_basso

If neither has power meters it would make no difference.

They have a similar diesel riding style and so that's how they would ride.

It seems you assume pros have no physical feeling in their legs or brain cells so can't feel when it's too hard or work out what's too much for them.

redvision

Shirley Basso wrote:

If neither has power meters it would make no difference.

They have a similar diesel riding style and so that's how they would ride.

It seems you assume pros have no physical feeling in their legs or brain cells so can't feel when it's too hard or work out what's too much for them.

:roll:

I think you are underestimating coaches/DS rider orders.

Removing power meters would eliminate such constraints and wound allow riders to race more freely.

philbar72

redvision wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

If neither has power meters it would make no difference.

They have a similar diesel riding style and so that's how they would ride.

It seems you assume pros have no physical feeling in their legs or brain cells so can't feel when it's too hard or work out what's too much for them.

:roll:

I think you are underestimating coaches/DS rider orders.

Removing power meters would eliminate such constraints and wound allow riders to race more freely.

but they still have their own characteristics. if you ride above and beyond you still blow up!

larkim

Perhaps for the domestiques you are closer to the truth in terms of planned activity. But there's no way I'm having it that Froome or Dumoulin take rigid orders from their coaches or ds about how they ride. Yes, they've got info from training, previous day's and live data that they didn't have twenty years ago, but I think you're massively over egging the in race impact that it has when the race is on.