TdF Stage 17 start format

DeadCalm

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeadCalm wrote:

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

It's not like they'll be set off at intervals. The third group is only going to be a bike length behind the first.

No_Ta_Doctor

Ooooh, twat with a blue flare pointing it right in the peloton, a rider behind Sky tries to smack it out of his hand.

knedlicky

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nks2m

DeadCalm

knedlicky wrote:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nks2m

Awesome. Thank you. So there are gaps between the groups but no indication of how big they are. It also says 4 groups of twenty behind the riders so I assume riders in position 101 to the Lanterne are in one big group? If that's right, then Kwia and Poels are in the 4th group currently. If the start is as narrow as the video suggests, it could be a reasonable time before the domestiques get to their leaders.

Also, are they suggesting that there could be a race from the warm-up area to the start grid to get the best position on the road? That would be funny to watch.

tgotb

gsk82 wrote:

Don't they realise that the very start of a road race isn't really that important? Are they expecting the gc riders to sprint to get to the first corner at the front?

You obviously haven't seen kids racing. In the U12s, the race is on from the B in Bang. Same on the continent; if you're not near the front going into the first corner, you're probably going to get dropped.

My guess is that they're trying to create the same thing. Whether it'll work I have no idea, but good on ASO for trying something different.

Lanterne_Rogue

DeadCalm wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nks2m

Awesome. Thank you. So there are gaps between the groups but no indication of how big they are. It also says 4 groups of twenty behind the riders so I assume riders in position 101 to the Lanterne are in one big group? If that's right, then Kwia and Poels are in the 4th group currently. If the start is as narrow as the video suggests, it could be a reasonable time before the domestiques get to their leaders.

Also, are they suggesting that there could be a race from the warm-up area to the start grid to get the best position on the road? That would be funny to watch.

I doubt they're genuinely doing a Le Mans start.

To introduce even bigger time gaps though, and to make it more relevant to cyclists at home, I think everyone should receive their bike boxed and have to attach bars and pedals etc with a crappy allen key and a wrench stamped badly out of the weakest steel known to man before they're able to cycle off. To prevent cheating bike changes are banned in the first twenty km. This would give teams an interesting problem though - do you get your domestiques to help their leader complete his bike so that he can leave sooner without any helpers, or do you get everyone to build their own so they can leave as a bunch? There may also be fights breaking out over who gets the packet of Haribo, which would add to the intrigue.

kingstongraham

Going to be like zwift racing.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

DeadCalm wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6nks2m

Awesome. Thank you. So there are gaps between the groups but no indication of how big they are. It also says 4 groups of twenty behind the riders so I assume riders in position 101 to the Lanterne are in one big group? If that's right, then Kwia and Poels are in the 4th group currently. If the start is as narrow as the video suggests, it could be a reasonable time before the domestiques get to their leaders.

Also, are they suggesting that there could be a race from the warm-up area to the start grid to get the best position on the road? That would be funny to watch.

If that video is to be believed, everyone has a pre-determined grid start position according to their GC position, there is no lottery dash from the warm-up area.

I can only see this start being interesting if the stage start is narrow enough for other teams to block Sky from forming their pace train at the peleton front for a significant amount of time.

Would have been far more interesting to start riders according to GC time gaps, but hey ho.

tgotb

KingstonGraham wrote:

Going to be like zwift racing.

In what sense?
- Will they all grid up on turbos, that will magically cease to exist when the gun goes?
- Will 30% of the riders lie about their weight?
- Will they all leave their bikes to freewheel back down the mountain on their own after the finish, for the additional XP points?

Lanterne_Rogue

NitrousOxide wrote:

Would have been far more interesting to start riders according to GC time gaps, but hey ho.

Starting the likes of Lawson Craddock over five hours later than the GC boys strikes me as more than unusually cruel.

tgotb

NitrousOxide wrote:

Would have been far more interesting to start riders according to GC time gaps, but hey ho.

Isn't that what they tried in La Course last year? If so, it wasn't a great success...

kingstongraham

TGOTB wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Going to be like zwift racing.

In what sense?
- Will they all grid up on turbos, that will magically cease to exist when the gun goes?
- Will 30% of the riders lie about their weight?
- Will they all leave their bikes to freewheel back down the mountain on their own after the finish, for the additional XP points?

Full on from the start to the end, and if you get dropped by the leading group, there's no getting back.

Hope so, anyway.

DeadCalm

NitrousOxide wrote:

If that video is to be believed, everyone has a pre-determined grid start position according to their GC position, there is no lottery dash from the warm-up area.

Only the first group. The other groups line up on a first come first served basis.

NitrousOxide wrote:

I can only see this start being interesting if the stage start is narrow enough for other teams to block Sky from forming their pace train at the peloton front for a significant amount of time.

I hope this is the case.

fenix

I don't think it's a case of first come first served for those behind the top 20. Imagine the fisticuffs ? Surely they're going to be ranked in GC order or it will be chaos.

In fact - watching the video again - yes thats what will happen - they line up in their GC order.

There must be some kind of stagger though or else - why talk of groups of 20 behind. So they'll have a few seconds to make up.

Interesting idea.

Lanterne_Rogue

I suspect the idea of lining everyone up in GC order is that it introduces a degree of disharmony into the peloton and increases the chances of someone going away. The only downside is that it might encourage a more cautious start as everyone rides defensively to sort themselves out. In general giving the teams new problems isn't a bad one, as winning the GC has long since been solved (note that actually winning it is harder, but it's clear to pretty much everyone how to go about it).

bobmcstuff

Surely puts Froome and G in a good position then... If they can clip in fast enough

They should do it like Gladiators "Competitor... You will go on my first whistle..."

cougie

And finish on a ramped travelator. I bet the Giro will go with that.

No_Ta_Doctor

Looks like it could be pretty narrow once you add spectators, fencing etc.
It's basically the sort of B road where you'd definitely take the lane on a bike to avoid a close pass

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7935403 ... 312!8i6656

tgotb

Fenix wrote:

I don't think it's a case of first come first served

They should do first come first served for the whole field, like a non-league CX race. It'll be hilarious, we'll have riders arriving hours before the start, and lining up with their bars interlocked. When the comm blows his whistle someone on the front line will get their bars tangled in the barrier tape and fall over, jamming half the field behind them. The eventual winner will have crossed the start line on foot, with their bike above their head.
For the full experience, we could:
- Design the course with several different features that look like they could be a start line. Competitors have to figure out which is the actual start line by watching the comms and seeing where they go. Comms will counter this move by leaving race HQ in a starburst formation.
- Start the race 30 mins late, but don't tell the competitors, so they take their warm kit off early and get hypothermia. One rider will correctly predict this, but end up racing in a hoody.
- White jersey contenders will be allowed to bring a parent; if the rider needs the loo, the parent can keep their space by standing in the grid holding their bike while they disappear behind a bush. When the comm arrives, the start will be delayed by a further 5 mins by a parent shouting into the bushes, telling their rider to hurry up.

liquor box

I think this starting format will lend itself to alliances being formed between different teams, probably to try to defeat Sky.

Two or three teams for a TTT from the first second to not allow Sky to get its domestiques to catch up to form a train.

If G and Froome follow they will be isolated.

This is an exciting proposition but will in all likelihood be disappointing.

I would much prefer a stage with no communications equipment or power meters. Preferably an uphill time trial where knowing your body as opposed to reading a digital read out would be critical to win

above_the_cows

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

It's not like they'll be set off at intervals. The third group is only going to be a bike length behind the first.

Really? Then what's the point? This all seems like a total gimmick to me. It's as if Prudhomme had the money from the start and finish towns and didn't know how to make a decent stage out of it so thought, I know I'll make it 65km, start it with a climb and add a petit sense of mild-peril with some bobbins about a starting grid, and it doesn't matter if it's a complete damp squib, everyone will talk about it for weeks in advance of the Tour and ASO's raison d'etre will have been served. I mean call me cynical but...

bobmcstuff

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

It's not like they'll be set off at intervals. The third group is only going to be a bike length behind the first.

Really? Then what's the point? This all seems like a total gimmick to me. It's as if Prudhomme had the money from the start and finish towns and didn't know how to make a decent stage out of it so thought, I know I'll make it 65km, start it with a climb and add a petit sense of mild-peril with some bobbins about a starting grid, and it doesn't matter if it's a complete damp squib, everyone will talk about it for weeks in advance of the Tour and ASO's raison d'etre will have been served. I mean call me cynical but...

This is why I favour the Gladiators approach.

above_the_cows

bobmcstuff wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

It's not like they'll be set off at intervals. The third group is only going to be a bike length behind the first.

Really? Then what's the point? This all seems like a total gimmick to me. It's as if Prudhomme had the money from the start and finish towns and didn't know how to make a decent stage out of it so thought, I know I'll make it 65km, start it with a climb and add a petit sense of mild-peril with some bobbins about a starting grid, and it doesn't matter if it's a complete damp squib, everyone will talk about it for weeks in advance of the Tour and ASO's raison d'etre will have been served. I mean call me cynical but...

This is why I favour the Gladiators approach.

Shame Moscon's gone home.

DeadCalm

bobmcstuff wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Has anyone seen further details of exactly how this will work?

At the moment 3 Team Sky, 3 Movistar, 2 Jumbos and 2 AG2R in the front group whereas Tom Dumoulin is on his own.

Assuming the remaining groups are equal sized, Sky currently have nobody in the second group and Kwia and Poels in the third group but nobody has stacks of domestiques near the front.

It's not like they'll be set off at intervals. The third group is only going to be a bike length behind the first.

Really? Then what's the point? This all seems like a total gimmick to me. It's as if Prudhomme had the money from the start and finish towns and didn't know how to make a decent stage out of it so thought, I know I'll make it 65km, start it with a climb and add a petit sense of mild-peril with some bobbins about a starting grid, and it doesn't matter if it's a complete damp squib, everyone will talk about it for weeks in advance of the Tour and ASO's raison d'etre will have been served. I mean call me cynical but...

This is why I favour the Gladiators approach.

Except the third group aren't only going to be a bike length behind the first group. We don't know the distances between groups for a start but, even if one group is directly behind the other there will be 60 plus riders between Kwia / Poels and Froome / Thomas. All of those 60 odd riders will be desperately trying to move up at the same time on a narrow road. It could be carnage in front of them.