Another Power meter option post.

baroid
baroid Posts: 87
edited July 2018 in Road buying advice
Hi
I am looking at purchasing a power meter and would appreciate any opinions on the following or others?
Team Zwatt – this meet my needs except it is heavy compared to the Dura Ace it will be replacing but more importantly I cannot find any reviews about it.

Power2Max, Ngeco Rotor 3D24- this is the option recommended for Shimano chainrings. Lighter than the Team Zwatt but also more expensive when you factor in the installation tool and Left/Right balance
Power2Max, Ngeco FSA Gossamer – I think this option would fit. About same weight and price as Team Zwatt but Left/Right balance is extra
4iii Podium- I think this is the only one that measures true Left/Right balance. Need to send crank set away, no problem, but unsure of actual cost because VAT and duty needs to be added?
FSA Powerbox- this doesn’t use Shimano rings and understand the rings it comes with are not particularly good. Also old technology, Power2Max system S
I would like Left/Right balance if only calculated as I have one leg 15mm shorter than the other and have 9mm of spacers under my cleat.
I have ruled out a pedal system as want to stick with Shimano pedals.
Cheers
«1

Comments

  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Nothing wrong with the Type S or the previous version to that if you can find one. I have the Type S Rotor 3D24 and whilst I bought the spider removal tool, any LBS would be willing to remove the lock nut for you for the cost of a coffee I'm sure. I don't understand why your having to pay extra for L/R balance when its standard on the Type S?
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • norvernrob
    norvernrob Posts: 1,447
    philthy3 wrote:
    Nothing wrong with the Type S or the previous version to that if you can find one. I have the Type S Rotor 3D24 and whilst I bought the spider removal tool, any LBS would be willing to remove the lock nut for you for the cost of a coffee I'm sure. I don't understand why your having to pay extra for L/R balance when its standard on the Type S?

    The NGeco Type S only does L/R balance as a software upgrade, as it’s €500 cheaper than the NGRoad Type S. The upgrade is only €50 though if you really want it. It’s not old tech either I assume, as the Eco models were only released late last year. I’ve just bought one for my Force 22 crankset.
  • MiddleRinger
    MiddleRinger Posts: 678
    The Power2Max units are tried, trusted and generally very reliable.

    Haven't heard much about the Team Zwatt offering.
    ~ ~ How fast is fast enough? ~ ~ ~ ~ Tempo Cyclist - Tasmania ~ ~
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    NorvernRob wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    Nothing wrong with the Type S or the previous version to that if you can find one. I have the Type S Rotor 3D24 and whilst I bought the spider removal tool, any LBS would be willing to remove the lock nut for you for the cost of a coffee I'm sure. I don't understand why your having to pay extra for L/R balance when its standard on the Type S?

    The NGeco Type S only does L/R balance as a software upgrade, as it’s €500 cheaper than the NGRoad Type S. The upgrade is only €50 though if you really want it. It’s not old tech either I assume, as the Eco models were only released late last year. I’ve just bought one for my Force 22 crankset.

    I'm referring to the Type S and the original Classic power meters, not the NGeco models.

    https://ccc0004.exblog.jp/19816540/

    https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/03/the ... eview.html
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    any of the power2max options are very solid PM's. I miss mine, should never have sold them.... since then I went with stages gen 2 ( utter rubbish) and Pioneer (reliable -ish).
  • baroid
    baroid Posts: 87
    Thanks for your comments. looks like the best option is P2M Ngeco with rotor cranks but need to buy special tool for installation as well.

    Anyone seen any reviews on Team Zwatt?
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Club mate has a Team Zwatt - working for him (atm). I have Stages (gen1) - totally reliable. Family member has (had?) P2Max - again, reliable. He's also had the Garmin pedals - not heard much about those tbh ...

    Quite a few in the club have Stages - only one that I'm aware of had issues with the battery draining. Only one has Zwatt - but that's probably more a timing thing (ie most had already got their pm of choice). A number have powertap and are happy with them - my only reason for not getting a powertap was that it was restricted to the one wheel.
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    My Power2Max NGeco FSA gossamer arrived yesterday, fitted it and upgraded the firmware but not had a chance to ride it yet.

    The FSA powerbox isn't based on Type-S power2max, it's an NGEco but with bluetooth as an added cost instead of enabled as standard. And there isn't anything wrong with the Type-S - tried and tested, more secure battery compartment, decent pricing with rotor tool and chainrings from power2max - might be worth thinking about given you're looking at the rotor 3d24 and are interested in LR balance.

    Personally I wouldn't believe what you read about one chainring shifting better than the other - I mean, I'm not saying there can't be/isn't a difference, just that I've used plenty of different ones (SRAM, shimano, praxis, spa etc) and so long as the rings aren't worn out they shift fine in my experience. I think this is just one of the ways magazines sell brands, same way hifi magazines can hear the difference between speaker cables.

    But yeah, I wouldn't buy a powerbox unless you find a great deal, as you're likely to have a much easier time finding rings for the Shimano 4 bolt pattern, or good old 5 bolt.
  • ryan_w-2
    ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,162
    Quarq, everytime.

    Just remember to calibrate it before you kill yourself up Madone....
    Specialized Allez Sprint Disc --- Specialized S-Works SL7

    IG: RhinosWorkshop
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Quarq, everytime.

    Just remember to calibrate it before you kill yourself up Madone....

    hmm - can't remember the last time I had to calibrate my power meter - at least I don't have to do it mid ride as the weather changes...
  • baroid
    baroid Posts: 87
    If I went for a P2M type S what is the disadvantages of not having Bluetooth. I use a smart trainer and at some point might want to use an on-line training app.
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    The small disadvantage that you might at some point need to buy an ant+ adapter, either for your ipad/apple tv etc or for your pc.

    These typically cost less than £10 - for your laptop, anyhow, not sure about ipad.

    A lot of laptops don't talk the bluetooth smart language that powertrainers transmit anyway, this is a large part of why the zwift companion app exists.
  • ryan_w-2
    ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,162
    TimothyW wrote:

    A lot of laptops don't talk the bluetooth smart language that powertrainers transmit anyway, this is a large part of why the zwift companion app exists.


    A lot of laptops...... Are you still running a 1994 Toshiba Satellite Pro?

    Pretty much all modern laptops work with BLE.

    I would 100% not buy a PM without BLE.
    Specialized Allez Sprint Disc --- Specialized S-Works SL7

    IG: RhinosWorkshop
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Baroid wrote:
    Thanks for your comments. looks like the best option is P2M Ngeco with rotor cranks but need to buy special tool for installation as well.

    Why do you need to buy the Rotor socket? Just ask your LBS to swap the spiders over for you. Once changed, you don't need to use it again unless you want to swap the Rotor spider back and sell the P2M or the Rotor cranks. Saying that, I bought it with my Type S and use it to install for others.

    On the subject of chainrings, the P2M works with anything even Q rings. The myths out there are many. I even get my Q rings to work perfectly well with Di2.

    If the smart trainer has a built in power meter, use that. Otherwise, get an ANT+ dongle or a ANT+ convert to BTE dongle and link via your phone.

    https://youtu.be/KcLjXYrtZFQ
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    Ryan_W wrote:
    TimothyW wrote:

    A lot of laptops don't talk the bluetooth smart language that powertrainers transmit anyway, this is a large part of why the zwift companion app exists.


    A lot of laptops...... Are you still running a 1994 Toshiba Satellite Pro?

    Pretty much all modern laptops work with BLE.

    I would 100% not buy a PM without BLE.
    OK, having done a bit more reading, it sounds like it isn't the hardware that is the issue, but software (apparently relating to the different ways Windows 7, 8 and 10 do bluetooth) - on a Windows laptop, for Zwift, sufferfest and Golden Cheetah there's no bluetooth support so you're using Ant+ anyway there (with the exception that Zwift can bridge bluetooth via your phone).

    For Trainerroad you need to obtain a particular USB bluetooth dongle (BLED112) so you might as well be getting the Ant+ dongle instead.

    Plenty of Android phones support Ant+ natively, so if that's what you're using, again you aren't really losing anything.

    On the other hand, if you've got an Ipad/Iphone/apple TV you're hoping to use for training, it will be a pain that you can't use bluetooth directly, but again, nothing a dongle or converter won't fix if it comes to that down the road.

    I mean, if it's zero sum, then sure, obviously you're going to want the power meter than can send over bluetooth as well as Ant+, but if you're potentially saving £100+ on a feature that you might never use then it isn't so clear cut IMO - if I could have got a better deal on the type S I'd have been very tempted - but for my needs (at the FSA gossamer level) it meant spending 60 extra euros for some chainrings I don't need and LR balance metrics I'm not interested in.

    At the Rotor 3d24 price point, the type S is only 39 euros extra, includes a 30 euro tool for fitting the spider, a 50 euro upgrade that he doesn't need to buy for L/R balance data and comes with chainrings so he can sell his current dura ace chainset complete (or have it ready to go if he's keeping it as a spare). That's certainly worth considering, IMO.

    If I'm missing some huge avenue for exploiting bluetooth to train on my laptop then please fill me in as I would be interested to hear - which apps can you fire up on a modern laptop that will talk directly to a bluetooth power meter?
  • stueys
    stueys Posts: 1,332
    The only real advantage of having Bluetooth is if you want to train using something like an iPad or Apple TV, then you’ll need to get a bluetooth bridge to get ant into bluetooth. Any pc you can run an ant usb dongle into a USB port. I’m theory bluetooth also makes it easier to update the firmware as you just use a mobile, but given I’ve never updated the firmware on my type s in the 3 years I’ve had it that....

    Only issue I have with my type s is swapping the battery requires dropping the crank set out. This is fine at home, it was less than fine when I had to do mid cycling trip. The other thing to think about is portability, the pedal based systems are hard to beat if you are using on multiple bikes.
  • ryan_w-2
    ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,162
    Everything is moving from ANT(+) to BLE.

    I would not buy an ANT(+) PM for this very reason.

    If you’re outlaying a few hundred quid, why not make sure it’s future proof for the foreseeable future?...
    Specialized Allez Sprint Disc --- Specialized S-Works SL7

    IG: RhinosWorkshop
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Everything is moving from ANT(+) to BLE.

    I would not buy an ANT(+) PM for this very reason.

    If you’re outlaying a few hundred quid, why not make sure it’s future proof for the foreseeable future?...

    ?
    You have read that Garmin for example are not going to support ANT on their future headunits?
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Everything is moving from ANT(+) to BLE.

    I would not buy an ANT(+) PM for this very reason.

    If you’re outlaying a few hundred quid, why not make sure it’s future proof for the foreseeable future?...

    Really? Even the latest bike computers still have Ant+
    How long do you expect the PM to last? Same as the lifetime of the bike computer? Then Ant+ is enough. That's the foreseeable future isn't it?

    Which probably means the next version of Garmin & Wahoo will ditch Ant+ in favour of bluetooth only and render all the ancillaries worthless... ;)
  • imafatman
    imafatman Posts: 351
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Everything is moving from ANT(+) to BLE.
    I would not buy an ANT(+) PM for this very reason.

    No. Most things will do both and any decent head unit does both.
  • ryan_w-2
    ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,162
    Fcuk me this forum is proper head against wall at times.

    Ok. Buy an ANT power meter, then in 2 years time, let’s revisit this thread.

    It’s not my money...
    Specialized Allez Sprint Disc --- Specialized S-Works SL7

    IG: RhinosWorkshop
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Fcuk me this forum is proper head against wall at times.

    Ok. Buy an ANT power meter, then in 2 years time, let’s revisit this thread.

    It’s not my money...

    Just quote us a link if you have read something.
    That's all. Chill, it's Friday
    However, for the record, my Stages (old now ) supports BT, as does my 4iiii, so I'm future proofed.. my 520 will decease itself in 12 months time anyway.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Fcuk me this forum is proper head against wall at times.

    Ok. Buy an ANT power meter, then in 2 years time, let’s revisit this thread.

    It’s not my money...

    I've had my Stages for what is it - 4 years now ... ok - it's Bluetooth enabled - but I've used that what ... 3 times - if that ... and that was only to see how it worked.

    ANT+ isn't going anywhere yet - and if the desired PM is ANT+ only then that's not a reason in itself to discount it.

    Oh - just a FYI - yours isn't the only valid opinion ... and it is just that - opinion ...
  • imafatman
    imafatman Posts: 351
    Ryan_W wrote:
    Fcuk me this forum is proper head against wall at times.

    Ok. Buy an ANT power meter, then in 2 years time, let’s revisit this thread.

    It’s not my money...

    Whilst there may be more BLE devices coming out without ANT+ support, it won't matter as long as your head unit supports it.

    And it's unlikely that any decent head unit would not accept ANT+ for the forceable future, there are just too many ANT+ devices out in the wild.
  • stueys
    stueys Posts: 1,332
    Ant is going nowhere. The only reason we are seeing bluetooth emerge is it’s ubiquitous across multi platforms in a way that ant isn’t, so for firmware updates with an iPhone, zwift with an Apple TV, etc etc, it’s useful. But it’s far from neccesary.
  • MisterMuncher
    MisterMuncher Posts: 1,302
    It's a hardware thing, too. The chipsets to broadcast typically do both, there's little to no advantage in just doing one for the manufacturers.
  • pulinski
    pulinski Posts: 14
    I personally would not buy a powermeter without BLE.
  • baroid
    baroid Posts: 87
    Hi.

    Thanks for all your replies and advice.


    It looks like the Power2Max, Ngeco Rotor 3D24 is the best option for me as I will be able to swop between 2 bikes both with Shimano chainsets.

    Total cost id 740 Euros, mad up of 640 for the powermeter and cranks, 30 for the installation tool, 50 for left/right balance and 20 for shipping.


    Do you think prices are likely to fall this autumn as they have done some previous years?


    I have also looked at Zwatt but cannot find any reviews plus it is 30 mm axle so not so easy to swop between bikes.


    Watteam looks interesting but it is so ugly.

    Cheers
  • bristolpete
    bristolpete Posts: 2,255
    Baroid wrote:
    Hi.

    Thanks for all your replies and advice.


    It looks like the Power2Max, Ngeco Rotor 3D24 is the best option for me as I will be able to swop between 2 bikes both with Shimano chainsets.

    Total cost id 740 Euros, mad up of 640 for the powermeter and cranks, 30 for the installation tool, 50 for left/right balance and 20 for shipping.


    Do you think prices are likely to fall this autumn as they have done some previous years?


    I have also looked at Zwatt but cannot find any reviews plus it is 30 mm axle so not so easy to swop between bikes.


    Watteam looks interesting but it is so ugly.

    Cheers

    Used one for sale in the classified second hand road bike parts. Bargain.
  • baroid
    baroid Posts: 87
    Hi bristolpete

    Thanks for update but want 172.5 cranks and the version for Shimano rings.

    Cheers

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