GC contenders and ITT's

heavy_rat

You only have to look at a photo of Pinot from yesterday to know that he doesn't take TT-ing seriously enough. I've seen better positions at my club 10.

Whether this is down to him or FDJ who knows but I reckon he could add 1-1.5 mph just by getting a proper TT bike fit done

m.r.m.

And yet Pinot was French TT champion last year

heavy_rat

That probably says more about the competition or that it was hilly course

Crozza

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gf ... 74#3816474

some interesting comments in here from Mat Steinmetz, a bike fitter specialising in TT/triathlon bike fits, on working with Andy Schleck - perhaps the most notoriously poor GC TTer

lettingthedaysgoby

GCN did a video looking at this stuff this week... And let’s face it, the presenter does kinda know what she’s talking about 8)

https://youtu.be/upsn5-fGa0s

norvernrob

joey54321 wrote:

I was thinking about this yesterday. Pinot is a particuar example, we know he can do a good TT. Maybe it was the rest day, or the fatigue, but that TT has possible lost him a podium at a grand tour.

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

I think it was Rosa who, when he joined Sky, went to a training camp in Tenerife and was amazed that all the different bikes were there. He said previously on camps he’d only have one bike.

bobmcstuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upsn5-fGa0s

Link to the GCN video. Bit long but the takeaway is that generally speaking and all else being equal, bigger riders have a natural advantage (drag doesn't increase linearly with size).

Kind of makes sense given the sizes of TT champions quoted above, and Yates performance relative to Dumoulin and the TT specialists (Yates widely agreed to have done a very good TT, but still lost out to the specialists, even though his form looks to be much better then Dumoulin and Froome on climbs).

dstev55

Anyone thought this might be why Froome is so successful? He can climb and he can time trial.

No_Ta_Doctor

I think the original question suffers a little from the "Missing bullet holes" problem

https://medium.com/@penguinpress/an-exc ... 4e708cfc3d

The GC contenders who are bad at TTs are good enough at TTs to be GC contenders.

I'm sure plenty of them could be better at them, if they devoted some time and effort to it. But that's time and effort they have to take away from something else - like maybe developing top end power on a climb.

No_Ta_Doctor

dstev55 wrote:

Anyone thought this might be why Froome is so successful? He can climb and he can time trial.

Errr.... yes. Some people complain that he shouldn't naturally be able to do both. They're basically wrong.

bobmcstuff

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm sure plenty of them could be better at them, if they devoted some time and effort to it. But that's time and effort they have to take away from something else - like maybe developing top end power on a climb.

I think partly because apart from getting more aero, the other way to improve in a TT is by increasing threshold power, and this is likely to mean putting on more mass. Which is likely to be detrimental on climbs.

This is why Wiggins and Dumoulin are/were successful, they were able to lose mass while keeping much of the power that allowed them to be so successful in TTs (and a key reason why certain people cry foul as that "shouldn't" be possible).

joey54321

bobmcstuff wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm sure plenty of them could be better at them, if they devoted some time and effort to it. But that's time and effort they have to take away from something else - like maybe developing top end power on a climb.

I think partly because apart from getting more aero, the other way to improve in a TT is by increasing threshold power, and this is likely to mean putting on more mass. Which is likely to be detrimental on climbs.

This is why Wiggins and Dumoulin are/were successful, they were able to lose mass while keeping much of the power that allowed them to be so successful in TTs (and a key reason why certain people cry foul as that "shouldn't" be possible).

This is not true.
And also, a good way of improving climbing is to improve threshold power.

inseine

joey54321 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm sure plenty of them could be better at them, if they devoted some time and effort to it. But that's time and effort they have to take away from something else - like maybe developing top end power on a climb.

I think partly because apart from getting more aero, the other way to improve in a TT is by increasing threshold power, and this is likely to mean putting on more mass. Which is likely to be detrimental on climbs.

This is why Wiggins and Dumoulin are/were successful, they were able to lose mass while keeping much of the power that allowed them to be so successful in TTs (and a key reason why certain people cry foul as that "shouldn't" be possible).

This is not true.
And also, a good way of improving climbing is to improve threshold power.

I know you took exception to my earlier post thinking I was saying that little folk can't TT, which i wasn't, but I still think it's true that a ''good big 'un will beat a good little 'un'' when it comes to time trials. It always a compromise but if you're oly doing TTs it's probably worth the odd extra kilo if that lead to more power.

larkim

dstev55 wrote:

Anyone thought this might be why Froome is so successful? He can climb and he can time trial.

Froome looks to me like he benefits from a very narrow frontal area. Add that to an ability to suffer, the physiology of being able to output high consistent wattage and relatively lightweight frame and it ends up just being that he's naturally "better".

inseine

I thought Yates looked good for a non TT specialist, nice small frontal area, though i know looks can be deceiving.

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larkim

There are good parallels in multi event track and field. There are individuals who are regarded as exceptional talents like Katrina Johnson Thompson who appear to throw it away a little by seemingly refusing to dedicate enough time to improving their weaknesses, often because they fear they'll lose capability in other areas.

Whereas athletes like Jessica Ennis Hill understood that if she could find strength and technique in the throws that would outweigh small losses in events like high jump where the additional muscle mass would be a penalty.

joey54321

inseine wrote:

I know you took exception to my earlier post thinking I was saying that little folk can't TT, which i wasn't, but I still think it's true that a ''good big 'un will beat a good little 'un'' when it comes to time trials. It always a compromise but if you're oly doing TTs it's probably worth the odd extra kilo if that lead to more power.

I do kind of agree with you, a small rider is unlikely to be the best TT compared to a larger rider, but that is no excuse for the amount of time some of these guys lose. Maybe for the World ITT we are nearly always going to see bigger riders win, but a TT in a GT a smaller rider should certainly be able to limit losses better than a lot of these riders do.

Pinot was even beaten by Viviani! V has no reason to ride hard except to make the time cut.

bobmcstuff

joey54321 wrote:

inseine wrote:

I know you took exception to my earlier post thinking I was saying that little folk can't TT, which i wasn't, but I still think it's true that a ''good big 'un will beat a good little 'un'' when it comes to time trials. It always a compromise but if you're oly doing TTs it's probably worth the odd extra kilo if that lead to more power.

I do kind of agree with you, a small rider is unlikely to be the best TT compared to a larger rider, but that is no excuse for the amount of time some of these guys lose. Maybe for the World ITT we are nearly always going to see bigger riders win, but a TT in a GT a smaller rider should certainly be able to limit losses better than a lot of these riders do.

Pinot was even beaten by Viviani! V has no reason to ride hard except to make the time cut.

Well I agree with this. Yates is a case in point, did well limiting his losses.

Pinot has done some good TTs in the past, it must be pretty depressing for him.

inseine

joey54321 wrote:

inseine wrote:

I know you took exception to my earlier post thinking I was saying that little folk can't TT, which i wasn't, but I still think it's true that a ''good big 'un will beat a good little 'un'' when it comes to time trials. It always a compromise but if you're oly doing TTs it's probably worth the odd extra kilo if that lead to more power.

I do kind of agree with you, a small rider is unlikely to be the best TT compared to a larger rider, but that is no excuse for the amount of time some of these guys lose. Maybe for the World ITT we are nearly always going to see bigger riders win, but a TT in a GT a smaller rider should certainly be able to limit losses better than a lot of these riders do.

Pinot was even beaten by Viviani! V has no reason to ride hard except to make the time cut.

Absolutely, I think we're all agreed he had a shocker. I heard Jack Haig saying he just rode at a steady sub threshold level to give his legs a spin. He was only 50 seconds behind Pinot who was fighting for a place on the podium!

No_Ta_Doctor

The GC contenders who are good at TTs tend to be TTers who have learnt how to climb, or at least hang in there and limit losses. Largish blokes who have dropped some weight while maintaining power output, and worked out how to use that power effectively uphill. It's likely they've been training TTs for a large part of their careers.

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

The GC contenders who are good at TTs tend to be TTers who have learnt how to climb, or at least hang in there and limit losses. Largish blokes who have dropped some weight while maintaining power output, and worked out how to use that power effectively uphill. It's likely they've been training TTs for a large part of their careers.

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

Dowsett himself says he puts out noticeably less power than his teammates but still riders faster than them.

Presumably it’s an aero thing in that instance.

davidof

inseine wrote:

Absolutely, I think we're all agreed he had a shocker. I heard Jack Haig saying he just rode at a steady sub threshold level to give his legs a spin. He was only 50 seconds behind Pinot who was fighting for a place on the podium!

Pinot is ill, according to his team.

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

The GC contenders who are good at TTs tend to be TTers who have learnt how to climb, or at least hang in there and limit losses. Largish blokes who have dropped some weight while maintaining power output, and worked out how to use that power effectively uphill. It's likely they've been training TTs for a large part of their careers.

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

Dowsett himself says he puts out noticeably less power than his teammates but still riders faster than them.

Presumably it’s an aero thing in that instance.

I was going to mention that, but couldn't remember where I'd seen it, was it in the Emma Pooley GCN piece?

He said he was comfortably beating teammates who were putting out 40W more than him.

I guess it's mostly aero, but possibly also handling in the corners, taking the right lines, and finding wind shadow, low resistance etc.

topper_harley

dstev55 wrote:

Anyone thought this might be why Froome is so successful? He can climb and he can time trial.

I can remember a comment from Wiggins saying that Froome has the build of a time trialist yet the weight of a climber..a bit of a freak in that way....I can't for the life of me remember where I read or heard say him say that

larkim

No tA Doctor wrote:

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

Like the current TT world champion?

RichN95.

No tA Doctor wrote:

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

Because they are specialists. We call them specialists because they aren't good at much else. Dumoulin, Froome, Roglic and perhaps now Dennis aren't called specialists despite being four of the top six in the world (along with Martin and van Emden)

m.r.m.

Dennis still gets shelled fairly easily on the major climbs. He will need a very specific parcours to win GC. At least for now.

bobmcstuff

No tA Doctor wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

The GC contenders who are good at TTs tend to be TTers who have learnt how to climb, or at least hang in there and limit losses. Largish blokes who have dropped some weight while maintaining power output, and worked out how to use that power effectively uphill. It's likely they've been training TTs for a large part of their careers.

We could also be asking why the TT specialists aren't GC contenders, no?

Dowsett himself says he puts out noticeably less power than his teammates but still riders faster than them.

Presumably it’s an aero thing in that instance.

I was going to mention that, but couldn't remember where I'd seen it, was it in the Emma Pooley GCN piece?

He said he was comfortably beating teammates who were putting out 40W more than him.

I guess it's mostly aero, but possibly also handling in the corners, taking the right lines, and finding wind shadow, low resistance etc.

Dowsett is British and if we're good at anything it's TTs. Dowsett came up riding 10s. All that practice on shitty dual carriageways must be worth something!

Lots of other countries don't have a TT culture at all.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

Dowsett is British and if we're good at anything it's TTs. Dowsett came up riding 10s. All that practice on sh!tty dual carriageways must be worth something!

You can't draft an Eddie Stobart in the Giro though. (Well Aru might be able to)

liquor box

r0bh wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Its fair enough, TT training is excrutiatingly dull to the point of painful.

Doing any kind of threshold efforts is dull and painful, doesn't make any difference what bike you are on

TT is also very boring on TV, I rarely have any interest, they need a CGI opponent on screen to show the time comparison (similar to the moving line in swimming on tv) to make it look like a race, or a hell of a lot more telemetry about the cyclist and bike.