GC contenders and ITT's

craigus89

I have been watching this sport for about 5 years now. This is one thing I have never understood, maybe I am being ignorant?

Why are some GC contenders so bad at ITT's? To the point that they are almost guaranteed to lose any advantage they have built up in previous stages.

Yesterdays Giro stage is what really drove this home for me, Yates has reportedly been working on his TT'ing and managed to limit his losses to the strong TT'ers and stay in the GC lead.

You hear it said that some riders really dislike riding their TT bikes, but if it is your major weakness, why on earth wouldn't you properly focus on it, not to compete with the best TT'ers but at least to limit losses?

I do understand that a natural climber will always struggle against the better TT'ers, am I being ignorant to the fact that some riders just cannot do it? I accept if I am, but it does seem very odd to me.

ShutupJens

Given the time gained and lost slogging up mountains, especially ones as difficult as the ones in the giro, I think people can justify it to themselves that they don't need to do as much. Or maybe the more that they do, the lower their ability to be able to duke it out in the finale of the big mountain battles

Or the little ones look at Tom D and accept that they are going to lose time so have to ride aggressively to put time into him later (or earlier) in the race

inseine

The optimization of TT positions and the whole aero package is still quite a new science and top pro riders (and especially coaches) can be quite stuck in there ways. Also some nations, notably the French have very little culture of time trailing. I know a top aero guy who has had many of the pro teams in his wind tunnel and says that some are totally closed to the idea of changing their positions at all even if if big aero gains are possible. Little guys are never going to put out as much power as big guys either.

craigus89

inseine wrote:

The optimization of TT positions and the whole aero package is still quite a new science and top pro riders (and especially coaches) can be quite stuck in there ways. Also some nations, notably the French have very little culture of time trailing. I know a top aero guy who has had many of the pro teams in his wind tunnel and says that some are totally closed to the idea of changing their positions at all even if if big aero gains are possible. Little guys are never going to put out as much power as big guys either.

This is interesting, but still seems like an absolutely mental attitude to have. If it is clear that your riders are losing a lot of time to other contenders in TT's how is your job still tenable if you refuse to try and improve?

joey54321

I was thinking about this yesterday. Pinot is a particuar example, we know he can do a good TT. Maybe it was the rest day, or the fatigue, but that TT has possible lost him a podium at a grand tour.

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

On the subject as well actually, I remember an interview with someone who worked with Andy Schleck. The were constantly trying to improve his position on the TT bike, would make adjustments but he would go away and not ride the bike, found it uncomfortable and then change it back (pretty stupid imo). This interviewee was saying what Schleck needed was someone with him 24/7 who would make him ride the TT bike and adapt to the position before making any adjustments.

davidof

inseine wrote:

some nations, notably the French have very little culture of time trailing

For a nation with little time trial culture they, historically, produced two of the worlds best time triallers: Anquetil and Hinault with 14 GP des Nations wins between them. What was more amazing is that Britain, with a culture of time trialling, were so poor at it internationally before the arrival of Chris Boardman and on the other side of the coin, as a road racing nation why the French have not managed a GT winner in years.

davidof

joey54321 wrote:

It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

Maybe because Marc Madiot would sooner rant at "les rosbifs" rather than getting on with winning races. Unfortunately the Froome Sabutamol thing has just added fuel to his sense of injustice rather than focusing on producing a GT winner.

DeVlaeminck

Most of them probably do work quite hard on it now but there are natural differences in body shape and physiology which will predispose some people to do better on a time trial bike than others. I'm sure there are a few who just don't like it though so avoid doing as much TT training as others.

There aren't many real GC contenders who are awful at it these days though - usually when someone is up there they can limit their losses in the way Yates has.

ben@31

inseine wrote:

Little guys are never going to put out as much power as big guys either.

^^^ This.

The example I think of is Quintana vs Dumoulin in last years Giro TT. I think Quintana didn't stand a chance and lost 1m24, Pinot also lost time that year.

craigus89

joey54321 wrote:

I was thinking about this yesterday. Pinot is a particuar example, we know he can do a good TT. Maybe it was the rest day, or the fatigue, but that TT has possible lost him a podium at a grand tour.

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

My point exactly.

joey54321 wrote:

On the subject as well actually, I remember an interview with someone who worked with Andy Schleck. The were constantly trying to improve his position on the TT bike, would make adjustments but he would go away and not ride the bike, found it uncomfortable and then change it back (pretty stupid imo). This interviewee was saying what Schleck needed was someone with him 24/7 who would make him ride the TT bike and adapt to the position before making any adjustments.

I suppose there are bound to be a few who essentially can't be arsed, you get them in all sports, but as we have both said, surely a lack of discipline/interest doesn't explain it for everyone.

joey54321

I don't agree with the "small people can't TT" thing. I know some amazing TTers that are very small. And on the world stage; Emma Pooley did pretty ok too.

Smaller people also have a substantially lower CdA.

Pinot came 66th yesterday, presumably while trying to go as hard as possible. I've heard lots of riders in a GT TT will treat it as a partial rest day, certainly, if you aren't going for TT, placing/stage win there is little point of nailing yourself so it does make sense. If we say the top 20 were gunning for the stage win, and say, the top 10 on GC too. Does that means 30 peoples rode faster than Pinot while barely trying?

inseine

joey54321 wrote:

I don't agree with the "small people can't TT" thing. I know some amazing TTers that are very small. And on the world stage; Emma Pooley did pretty ok too.

Smaller people also have a substantially lower CdA.

Not saying they can't TT, just being bigger is an advantage. Last 15 years of world champs;
Dumoulin 1.86
Martin 1.86
Kiryienka 1.82
Wiggins 1.90
Cancellara 1.86
Grabsch 1.79
Rogers 1.85

inseine

davidof wrote:

inseine wrote:

some nations, notably the French have very little culture of time trailing

For a nation with little time trial culture they, historically, produced two of the worlds best time triallers: Anquetil and Hinault with 14 GP des Nations wins between them. What was more amazing is that Britain, with a culture of time trialling, were so poor at it internationally before the arrival of Chris Boardman and on the other side of the coin, as a road racing nation why the French have not managed a GT winner in years.

Good points. I guess there are outlayers, but apart from that i don't know. AG2R as a team i think have really put some effort into in recently

RichN95.

joey54321 wrote:

I was thinking about this yesterday. Pinot is a particuar example, we know he can do a good TT. Maybe it was the rest day, or the fatigue, but that TT has possible lost him a podium at a grand tour.

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

Last year Bardet said he finds time trial training boring so doesn't do much. I found that amazing. Like a footballer saying he doesn't kick with his 'wrong' foot in training.

philbar72

Another thing is how people transition from race days to rest days and back. Pinot is notoriously bad at doing this. its good to see the old flat back routine dismissed as not being quite as efficient as being comfortable, able to turn the pedals and still be a fair bit aero… not that I know anything about it.

andytee87

RichN95 wrote:

Last year Bardet said he finds time trial training boring so doesn't do much. I found that amazing. Like a footballer saying he doesn't kick with his 'wrong' foot in training.

I remember that, and remember thinking his sponsors must love hearing him say that... not! Makes you wonder how much he really wants a TdF or is he just relying on Prudhomme/ASO being so desperate for a French winner they'll ditch TTs completely for a year.

Back to yesterday though, and whether Pinot was on a bad day or not, he can put a good TT in when he concentrates. It was clear early on that his head wasn't in it and I said to the people watching with me he was going to have a bad one. You went from Sean Kelly talking about the focus required for a TT effort and how the good testers can look through you and not make eye contact before they ride, to Pinot fidgeting around in his warm-up like he'd put the resistance down on the ergo and didn't want his coach/DS to realise. He just wasn't 'in the zone'.... and I hate that phrase. Compare that with Yates warming up- towel over his head, no distractions (obviously he's on form as well which helps) and it's no surprise he did a great ride.

r0bh

joey54321 wrote:

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

IIRC when Alex Dowsett moved to Movistar they were very surprised when he asked to have a TT bike for training!

markwb79

I do think its going to be down to power and drag all the time (on flat courses). Plus the amount you practice.

Maybe its because of social media and it has always gone on. But so many times you see pictures of Team Sky out in the hills around Nice on their TT bikes doing threshold efforts.

I think Cummings does the same, threshold efforts on the TT bike and then the rest of the ride on the road bike.

My guess is that Pinot etc, doesnt do this as much.

Never come across a sport so stuck in their ways..... Part of the reason I love it though (pinning numbers on is a great example, love that!)

Vino'sGhost

RichN95 wrote:

joey54321 wrote:

I was thinking about this yesterday. Pinot is a particuar example, we know he can do a good TT. Maybe it was the rest day, or the fatigue, but that TT has possible lost him a podium at a grand tour.

I did hear an interesting soundbite from Teo Geoghan Hart the other day saying he has put extra effort to travelling with his TT bike in order to ride it more, and that it was a real hassle but he has made himself do it. It just seems mindboggling with the support, money, technology, everything that guys of the standing of Pinot, Pozzovivo, Quintana, etc... have they still are known to ride such bad TTs.

Last year Bardet said he finds time trial training boring so doesn't do much. I found that amazing. Like a footballer saying he doesn't kick with his 'wrong' foot in training.

Its fair enough, TT training is excrutiatingly dull to the point of painful.

joey54321

Markwb79 wrote:

I do think its going to be down to power to weight all the time. Plus the amount you practice.

Maybe its because of social media and it has always gone on. But so many times you see pictures of Team Sky out in the hills around Nice on their TT bikes doing threshold efforts.

I think Cummings does the same, threshold efforts on the TT bike and then the rest of the ride on the road bike.

My guess is that Pinot etc, doesnt do this as much.

Never come across a sport so stuck in their ways..... Part of the reason I love it though (pinning numbers on is a great example, love that!)

A TT similar to yesterday has almost nothing to do with power to weight. It's power to CdA that determines the speed.

We know these guys can produce the power so either:

a) they don't train enough in their TT positions to get the power out on the TT bike
b) They have a high CdA - given the resources available, if this is true, then it's their own fault they're losing GTs
c) They have morphological reasons why they can't get in to an aero position - having seen lots of the top guys on the domestic scene going insanely fast with a variety of position I just don't believe this is true for a second. Not when you also factor in these guys have S&C coaches and physios available to them to get them in shape.

r0bh

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Its fair enough, TT training is excrutiatingly dull to the point of painful.

Doing any kind of threshold efforts is dull and painful, doesn't make any difference what bike you are on

markwb79

joey54321 wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

I do think its going to be down to power to weight all the time. Plus the amount you practice.

Maybe its because of social media and it has always gone on. But so many times you see pictures of Team Sky out in the hills around Nice on their TT bikes doing threshold efforts.

I think Cummings does the same, threshold efforts on the TT bike and then the rest of the ride on the road bike.

My guess is that Pinot etc, doesnt do this as much.

Never come across a sport so stuck in their ways..... Part of the reason I love it though (pinning numbers on is a great example, love that!)

A TT similar to yesterday has almost nothing to do with power to weight. It's power to CdA that determines the speed.

We know these guys can produce the power so either:

a) they don't train enough in their TT positions to get the power out on the TT bike
b) They have a high CdA - given the resources available, if this is true, then it's their own fault they're losing GTs
c) They have morphological reasons why they can't get in to an aero position - having seen lots of the top guys on the domestic scene going insanely fast with a variety of position I just don't believe this is true for a second. Not when you also factor in these guys have S&C coaches and physios available to them to get them in shape.

yes yes, sorry. I meant just power.....plus drag (not weight).

Vino'sGhost

Markwb79 wrote:

I do think its going to be down to power to weight all the time. Plus the amount you practice.

This isnt true at all. Power to weight becomes secondry to absoloute power on flat courses or where theres block headwinds, Technical courses throw up gaps based on bike handling and suit the power profiles of some riders more than others, eg sprinters often go well on shorty technical prologue type tests. Sessions in the wind tunnel produce remarkable gains, you only need to look at the leaps forward domestic testers make after small aero adjustments. All those sub 20 times are influenced by access to quality training and better positions and equipment. The athletes themselves arent funadamentally changed.

Its a complicated thing the TT and one that normaly as a viewer leaves me cold. Yesterdays was good I only really needed to tune in after 3.30.

As a rider i was ok but hated doing them, never practicsed for them and avoided like the plague. Although the odd day when i was going really well and sitting on a knife edge of maximum sustainable effort was very good

Lanterne_Rogue

i think it's a category error. If you can't TT at all, you're not actually a GC contender no matter how much the media or fans talk you up.

Vino'sGhost

r0bh wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Its fair enough, TT training is excrutiatingly dull to the point of painful.

Doing any kind of threshold efforts is dull and painful, doesn't make any difference what bike you are on

Yes, but if you do a lot of them its uninspiring at best and if i have to do them id rather do them on my road bike which I find more enjoyable to ride, definitley more comfortable and 1000% more appealing.

Edit : ive sold everything to do with TT 2 or 3 years ago

craigus89

Some interesting posts here. It seems I'm not on my own being slightly confused by this.

It seems that there are inevitably some who just can't be bothered and don't put the effort in to train. We see these people in all lines of sport, e.g the footballer who has huge talent and potential but can't be bothered with training and flounders around the pitch when the team is losing.

I was trying to think of an analogy if it is true that some teams/riders just neglect proper TT training. This isn't perfect and excuse the football comparison as I know some of you hate it, but it would be a bit like a team with a lot of talented forwards going to the world cup without a goalie because they are just going to rely on scoring more than their opponents. A rider may be super strong in the mountains, but if you can't keep the ball out of your own net in the TT you may as well not bother.

It just baffles me a bit thats all. Maybe that is the charm of the sport though. Just seeing Pozzo on his bike yesterday I couldn't quite believe how bad he looked, I'm pretty sure my wife gets more aero on her shopper on the way to work.

markwb79

Craigus89 wrote:

Some interesting posts here. It seems I'm not on my own being slightly confused by this.

It seems that there are inevitably some who just can't be bothered and don't put the effort in to train. We see these people in all lines of sport, e.g the footballer who has huge talent and potential but can't be bothered with training and flounders around the pitch when the team is losing.

I was trying to think of an analogy if it is true that some teams/riders just neglect proper TT training. This isn't perfect and excuse the football comparison as I know some of you hate it, but it would be a bit like a team with a lot of talented forwards going to the world cup without a goalie because they are just going to rely on scoring more than their opponents. A rider may be super strong in the mountains, but if you can't keep the ball out of your own net in the TT you may as well not bother.

It just baffles me a bit thats all. Maybe that is the charm of the sport though. Just seeing Pozzo on his bike yesterday I couldn't quite believe how bad he looked, I'm pretty sure my wife gets more aero on her shopper on the way to work.

A little harsh to say they cant be bothered I think?

Its not as if they sit on the sofa instead.

craigus89

Markwb79 wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Snip.

A little harsh to say they cant be bothered I think?

Its not as if they sit on the sofa instead.

That's not really the same thing though, I would say that if you are a professional and neglect proper training because you don't enjoy it as much as another form or you find it difficult is not being bothered, no?

barry_kellett99

My rough and rusty maths says Pinot averaged 29.5mph for the TT. Which sounds impressive on its own.
His only problem was that Dennis was averaging 32mph

markwb79

Craigus89 wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Snip.

A little harsh to say they cant be bothered I think?

Its not as if they sit on the sofa instead.

That's not really the same thing though, I would say that if you are a professional and neglect proper training because you don't enjoy it as much as another form or you find it difficult is not being bothered, no?

maybe they see it as making their strengths even stronger?

Vino'sGhost

Markwb79 wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

Snip.

A little harsh to say they cant be bothered I think?

Its not as if they sit on the sofa instead.

That's not really the same thing though, I would say that if you are a professional and neglect proper training because you don't enjoy it as much as another form or you find it difficult is not being bothered, no?

maybe they see it as making their strengths even stronger?

I think all GC contenders must be doing TT training, its almost inconceivable to think they could win without being pretty handy. But its also a balance, if your climbing can get you the time gaps needed, focusing too much onsteady power output is going to be at the expense of Explosive power to weight.

I guess were all different thank god.