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Rider Down!

PufftmwPufftmw Posts: 1,941
edited May 2018 in Commuting chat
I will take some responsibility for this but when you watch the video you decide. I see it as the bus accelerated, he was going from primary back to just following, so I went for the overtake. As that happened, he swerves out into me, forcing me into the red car :roll:

Jamaica Road around 17:40

He couldn't understand what he'd done to cause the accident, denied any responsibility and just wanted to be on his way. No point trying to reason with an idiot, so he let him go - couldn't force him to swap details either. I get the driver of the car to pull over and he has a badly dented C pillar, broken tail light, deep scrapes on rear quarter and dents in door as well as other gouges on bumper. He was genuinely decent about it and we agreed on £500 to cover the damage as opposed to go through insurance. I've still got a rear wheel to replace and have bruising all up my right side and scratches on my left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-OAQ48uXPk
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Posts

  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,478
    hmm ... difficult ... clearly he changed lanes without checking - but you did overtake a bit close - perhaps you should've touched his censored so he knew you were there ... ;)
  • ryan_w-2ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,160
    Your fault for not taking choppers into consideration.
    Wasn’t much room for you to filter either.
    Hey ho. Sh!t happens.

    Edit: Watched again a few times. 100% the choppers fault but should should have foreseen this by the way he was riding / generally being a chopper.
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  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 2,118
    Probably not a gap I would have gone for, but (more from the shadow) you can see that he changed line and went directly in to you causing the collision with the car.
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  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    So you rode into him....

    and then hit a car.

    Well done.
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  • mw22mw22 Posts: 78
    Thank f**k I don't have to ride in anything like that.

    I was annoyed on my commute with bikes crossing roads behind stationary vans, bikes deciding to just pull up after a junction and park in the bike lane I was using... but geezus, that video just looks like a cluster f**k of accidents waiting to happen.

    I've had 1 accident in 10 years of commuting (my fault, lesson learnt). I don't expect to have another. Can't help but feel its part and parcel down there in London village if thats the norm!
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  • Think you were both at fault there. Him for pulling over and you for going into a gap that clearly wasn't big enough.
  • mw22 wrote:
    Thank f**k I don't have to ride in anything like that.

    I was annoyed on my commute with bikes crossing roads behind stationary vans, bikes deciding to just pull up after a junction and park in the bike lane I was using... but geezus, that video just looks like a cluster f**k of accidents waiting to happen.

    I've had 1 accident in 10 years of commuting (my fault, lesson learnt). I don't expect to have another. Can't help but feel its part and parcel down there in London village if thats the norm!
    Cycling in London just looks utterly horrible on every level.
  • mattsawmattsaw Posts: 907
    I've watched it through a few times and it's difficult to gauge the exact positioning as I'm guessing there may be some foreshortening of distances?

    It's probably a good example of the difference between being correct and 'technically correct', he seems to cut across both lanes and doesn't check before changing direction.

    On the other hand you could have given him more space bearing in mind the standard of riding from everyone swarming around you and the stop-start traffic. I also think you both got a bit close beforehand when passing the black car and could easily have touched then.

    Having said that everything is easy to pull to pieces in slow-motion after the event.
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  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    I watched it with the sound off, so I don't know if you made any communication to him to indicate you were going to try and overtake (eg "on your right!") but that looks like a censored ropey move to me mate, and I think you need to take full responsibility - if you were a car then I would describe the way you behaved as MGIF 'must get in front...'

    It's obvious that the space is narrowing, and yet you're expecting the rider in front to not move across to where the space is but instead to hold his (narrowing) line so that you can overtake?

    It reminds me a bit of that behaviour of car drivers, when they pass you ultra close when you move out from secondary to come round a parked car - like they expect you to stop and wait behind the parked car for a gap - not happening is it?
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,478
    timothyw wrote:
    It's obvious that the space is narrowing, and yet you're expecting the rider in front to not move across to where the space is but instead to hold his (narrowing) line so that you can overtake?
    You sure the space was narrowing - the bus in the left hand lane seems to get further away - so not sure why the other rider moved right - other than he's a nodder - he was just wobbling about that white line though - so agree it's a bit of a dodgy overtake...
  • SewinmanSewinman Posts: 2,131
    You can see from his earlier shoulder checks back towards you that he was thinking of going around the bus and then the black car got in the way. I wouldn't have gone for it.
  • njee20njee20 Posts: 9,613
    Your fault for me.

    Barged through a non-existent gap, you can't be surprised he moved over given his position. Definitely don't see "cutting across both lanes" - he's a bit non-committal in his discipline, but that's his prerogative, he's in front until a second before you ride into him.
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,361
    I thought you were going to hit the audi....

    Impatient cycling there I think - I'd have hung back - there clearly wasn't the space for it.
  • Maybe try reading the highway code before blaming others for your bad riding
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 47,899 Lives Here
    Overtaker's prerogative to be safe and only go when there's enough room.

    Need to be more patient, or possibly faster off the line ;).

    Also, judging by the traffic, were you expecting big gains time wise?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    Two points:

    1. You've knowingly put yourself into a narrow gap between two vehicles, one of which is moving, and which you're also overtaking (so it may not know you're there). This is a big no-no in my book, because it gives the moving vehicle (who, just to recap, may not know you're there) the ability to squash you. You're lucky it was another cyclist, not an HGV.
    TGOTB's golden rule for not getting squashed: Never allow yourself to be alongside a moving vehicle unless:
    (a) you're overtaking it, and there's plenty of space
    (b) it's overtaking you, and therefore knows you're there
    (c) it's another cyclist who knows you're there, and whom you know well enough to trust (ie you're on a club run, chatting to a mate etc)
    (d) you're racing, in which case the only vehicles around are cyclists, you can touch their a*se without being inappropriate, and you're accepting the increased risk of collision

    2. Hard to tell whether the other cyclist took out your front wheel or body-slammed you; from the footage, I suspect the latter. If that's the case, as any decent track cyclist will tell you, you can hold your line and lean back.
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  • hopkinbhopkinb Posts: 5,465
    tgotb wrote:
    2. Hard to tell whether the other cyclist took out your front wheel or body-slammed you; from the footage, I suspect the latter. If that's the case, as any decent track cyclist will tell you, you can hold your line and lean back.

    I'm not any sort of decent cyclist, but I did that myself the other day when someone pulled into me without looking. They thanked me for keeping both of us upright, and promised to shoulder check in future :roll: . Different in that there was no line of cars on my right I suppose.

    I am on my guard in traffic like that, not trying to press on, and I hate the thought of squeezing through gaps that might close in a hurry.

    Fault? 50:50. Man probably shouldn't have moved off his line without checking, and OP probably shouldn't have gone for the gap.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 47,899 Lives Here
    It's up to the overtaker to find the room. What were you expecting the nodder to do?
  • Pufftmw wrote:
    we agreed on £500 to cover the damage as opposed to go through insurance.

    This sounds very dodgy. Why wouldn't he want to go through the official channels and for the record.
    Something to hide? It sounds like he wasn't insured.
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  • Pufftmw wrote:
    we agreed on £500 to cover the damage as opposed to go through insurance.

    This sounds very dodgy. Why wouldn't he want to go through the official channels and for the record.
    Something to hide? It sounds like he wasn't insured.

    Even if you're not at fault, being involved in an accident makes your insurance higher.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2018
    It sounds like he wasn't insured.
    Just checked - insured, taxed and valid MOT.

    Might have been worried about losing his no claims discount though, which can happen under some circumstances even if you're not at fault.

    Edit: One other point: The other rider was obliged to share his details. If I was involved in an accident with another cyclist whom I thought was at fault and refused to provide details, unless I thought the situation was dangerous I'd be tempted to grab his bike and ask someone to call the Police...
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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,478
    tgotb wrote:
    It sounds like he wasn't insured.
    Just checked - insured, taxed and valid MOT.

    Might have been worried about losing his no claims discount though, which can happen under some circumstances even if you're not at fault.
    you're assuming that is his number plate ...
  • hopkinbhopkinb Posts: 5,465
    It's up to the overtaker to find the room. What were you expecting the nodder to do?

    Personally, if I was in OP's situation, I would have been hanging back, telling nodder to to move out.

    But, I never quite get this concept of the overtaker finding the room. In this situation, nodder's "lane" is blocked by the bus, OP's "lane" is not. If I was in nodder's situation, I would be looking to move out, indicating, shoulder checking, but if no gap presented itself, I would just stop behind the bus, probably muttering under my breath about [email protected] not letting me out, and wait until it started moving again, or for a gap to appear so I can pull out & overtake. This happens all the time. I certainly would not just veer right and hope for the best.
  • prowlbassprowlbass Posts: 159
    The rider in front is in the same lane at the start of the video and barely strays over the line - he's heading toward slow moving traffic and there's a gap down the middle, which looks big enough to filter down cautiously and he very clearly shoulder checks with a view to passing the bus (before not doing so due to the car closing the gap). I would interpret his activity as 'attempting to filter' rather than placing him in one lane or another. Not a situation I'd ever attempt an overtake in and I'd certainly lean toward the blame lying with you. I'm hoping it's just the camera distorting distances, but you do seem to be riding far too close to the other rider.
  • smokey_baconsmokey_bacon Posts: 1,637
    Hope you heal up quick Pffft. Have to agree with the above though it's a risky move for very little gain. I always assume that buses become extensions of the pavement and those with less nouse will just try and ride around without looking regardless of what's around them.
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,142
    ouch, expensive commute and no dough painful!

    The video and hind sight do seem to show that while he should of shoulder checked, it was predictable. people do make mistakes so I tend to give people lots of space hence I get easily out filtered, mostly it makes little difference, and frankly is a calmer way of travelling.
  • I'm afraid that was both predictable and mostly down to you. A guy in jeans and trainers on a BSO and you're expecting him to be shoulder checking and road savvy. That was never going to happen when the bus and traffic in front was creating a funnel to send you both through. Lessons learnt I guess.
  • davisdavis Posts: 2,566
    Not an overtake I would've gone for.

    As an insured, taxed etc driver, I would also do everything I possibly could to avoid involving any insurance company until completely necessary (like a car written off/someone injured by my mistake) and that's completely normal behaviour. Bumps and shunts... nah.
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  • anonymousblackfganonymousblackfg Posts: 2,029
    100% your fault, that much boxers showing above his belt line and his white rear mudguard guaranteed the nodder would pull such an maneuver.
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  • ManiaMuseManiaMuse Posts: 89
    I'd say it's mostly your fault tbh. Sounds like you have learnt an expensive lesson.

    I think it probably a result of you both being a bit indecisive; him being indecisive as to whether to filter or not (you can see him do a shoulder check before the black audi takes up the gap so that's a hint that he might drift over) and you being a bit indecisive about whether to overtake or not and in the end not really doing either and putting yourself in a dangerous position.

    You're not going to make much progress in that situation anyway, there is another bus in front of the bus you are behind with a moped filtering more cautiously and both lanes of traffic are moving slowly.

    In summary:

    - Traffic is busy and slow moving
    - Gap too small to be riding that close to a stranger. It can seem quite intimidating and aggressive if some randomer is right on your back wheel (or worse overlapping wheels but not overtaking).
    - Gap is only going to get smaller
    - You have no escape route if something happens
    - You can usually do a bit of 'profiling' of a cyclists likely actions or inactions based on their steed and clothing (that applies to full pro kit wankers as well)
    - You're not going to make much progress anyway, I suspect that nodder would have kept up with your while filtering anyway
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