Any advice for going tubeless?

scotthunter

Hi,

Please forgive me if I sound dumb as I am new to this.

I've just got a new bike (Giant Defy Advanced Pro 1) which came with Giant SLR 1 disc composite Wheel System with 25mm Giant Gavia AC 1 tubeless tyres. I am completely new to tubeless tyres as I had inner tube wheels on my old bike.

I went out for my a 10 mile test ride and there was no loss of pressure after the first ride, which is good.

The bike was set up properly at a bike store so there is ample sealant in there and they pumped the tyres up to 90-100 PSI in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

I have heard that you are unlikely to get a flat tyre with tubeless, and if you do get a puncture the sealant will prevent the tyre from going completely flat, allowing you to get yourself home.

I think the vast majority of flats in the past have been a result of pinch flats after hitting deep potholes.

With tubeless, does this mean you don't need to carry a pump on a ride? I would prefer not to as I can't install my Leznye pump mount under the bottle cage on my new bike as it is in the way of the Ultegra crank arm, so I could have to carry a pump on my back, which I would rather not do.

If there is a puncture through the tyre wall, how are you supped to patch this up on the side of the road?

Any advice from people who have experience with tubeless tyres would be much appreciated.

Thanks

cooldad

I ride tubeless (mountain bikes) and have for years. I carry a spare tube, puncture kit and a pump, plus some tubeless 'worms'.

You are less likely to get punctures, but sh1t still happens.

keef66

Yep, last year I had 2 sidewall cuts that would've done the same to tubeless tyres, so you still need to take a pump, worms and tool, inner tube, tyre levers, tyre boot.

Or a phone with the number of a reliable taxi...

zefs

I also carry the same stuff as I did with tubes on long rides (tube/levers/mini pump/co2/patches).
If it's something the patches can fix you do it as with normal tires from the inside of the tire after you remove the sealant and you add the inner tube normally. If it's a bigger hole you need worms or dynaplug (or similar).

Poppa Wheelie

All of what's been said above plus I carry a couple of disposable latex type gloves and a couple of squares of industrial tissue should I ever have to fit an inner tube. They weigh grams and take the same amount of space as a hanky but I won't get sealant on my hands.

THE most overlooked benefit of tubeless tyres is they won't blow out and go instantaneously flat like an inner tube can. After all, that's the reason cars switched to tubeless tyres decades ago. Too many people were killed by blow outs.

cycleclinic

Have at look at the blog or tech guide on the website. There is a guide to exactly how you deal with tubeless punctured. Yes you must carry a pump and tyre worms otherwise you will be stranded one day. Sealant us good but it can only do so much.

Ignore the pressure recommend actions. I am surprised the shop used them. Experiment but you will settle on 80 psi rear at most.

I have not carried a tube for a long time. I never need one as worm can fix everything. For proof I have a photo from a customers wheel. He was proud of what he fixed.

cooldad

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

sloppyschleckonds

cooldad wrote:

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

In 30 years of riding this has never happened to me or anyone I know

Poppa Wheelie

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

In 30 years of riding this has never happened to me or anyone I know

Lucky You.

Vino'sGhost

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

In 30 years of riding this has never happened to me or anyone I know

Happens every week in berkshire. FLint plus sidewall = carnage. Simply fixed with normal clinchers PIA withtubeless which can be a right pain to get off the rim and patch plus reassemble with inner tube. Absoloute nightmare and it gets right on the wick of everyone else as they stand around for twenty mins.

Tubeless great for mountain bikes, and sound great for the inxeprienced on the road but actually expoensive and likely to leave you stranded.

StillGoing

Push the bead to the centre of the rim when fitting to make it easy to get the tyre on, even with just your hands.
Use sealant to help with sealing to the rim.
Take some tyre worms with you on rides and a spare inner tube for the event that sealant or the worms don't work.

No more pinch flats, smoother ride, able to run at lower pressures, lighter over all.

What's not to like.

bondurant

Vino'sGhost wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

In 30 years of riding this has never happened to me or anyone I know

Happens every week in berkshire. FLint plus sidewall = carnage. Simply fixed with normal clinchers PIA withtubeless which can be a right pain to get off the rim and patch plus reassemble with inner tube. Absoloute nightmare and it gets right on the wick of everyone else as they stand around for twenty mins.

Tubeless great for mountain bikes, and sound great for the inxeprienced on the road but actually expoensive and likely to leave you stranded.

Happened to me three times, albeit two of them were front and rear at the same time. Yes, not too common, but it does happen and a few friends have had it happen too. It's worth considering.

roger_merriman

Bondurant wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Worms will fix MOST things, good luck with a big split in a sidewall or similar. Tyre boot and a tube will help then.

In 30 years of riding this has never happened to me or anyone I know

Happens every week in berkshire. FLint plus sidewall = carnage. Simply fixed with normal clinchers PIA withtubeless which can be a right pain to get off the rim and patch plus reassemble with inner tube. Absoloute nightmare and it gets right on the wick of everyone else as they stand around for twenty mins.

Tubeless great for mountain bikes, and sound great for the inxeprienced on the road but actually expoensive and likely to leave you stranded.

Happened to me three times, albeit two of them were front and rear at the same time. Yes, not too common, but it does happen and a few friends have had it happen too. It's worth considering.

I never had it with full road bikes, but It happens now and then on the gravel bike, generally the rear tyre sometimes it’s a complete blow out, sometimes it’s simply gone so deep and into the carcass that I’m unwilling to keep using it.

It’s not that common maybe once every other year, does depend on where you ride etc, as ever your mileage will vary.

ZMC888

I've spent 10 years on MTB tubeless and just completed around a year on road tubeless. Personally I wouldn't bother with road tubeless just yet.

I'm lazy so for easy reading here is a bullet point opinion of road tubeless vs MTB tubeless.

-MTB tubeless is a no-brainer because you are off-road and there is more debris like thorns and sharp rocks.
-Road tubeless tires are between expensnive and insanely expensive.
-There is no 'go to' road tubeless tire like Conti GP4000S2. Some are fast and weak (Pro one) others are tougher but it's a bit of a crapshoot.
-There is no standardised size for road 'tubeless ready', some tire rim combinations could be dangerously loose or need loads of tape, others impossibly too tight to mount.
-Many sealant manufacturers believe that sealants made for MTB automatically work for road, but they don't, Stans and dozens of other rebranded Stans (Schwalbe Blue etc) won't seal reliably above about 40psi. Only Orange Sealant and MAYBE a few others work reliably at higher pressures.
-If you are not very heavy and your roads are fairly clean you don't deseperately need road tubeless.
-Road tubeless isn't any lighter and often is heavier vs tube clincher.
-Some sealants aren't compatible with CO2.

I think road tubeless will be the future, but rims need to be sealed from the factory, sealants need to improve to be road specific and tire/rim sizes need to be standardised.

Vino'sGhost

ZMC888 wrote:

I've spent 10 years on MTB tubeless and just completed around a year on road tubeless. Personally I wouldn't bother with road tubeless just yet.

I'm lazy so for easy reading here is a bullet point opinion of road tubeless vs MTB tubeless.

-MTB tubeless is a no-brainer because you are off-road and there is more debris like thorns and sharp rocks.
-Road tubeless tires are between expensnive and insanely expensive.
-There is no 'go to' road tubeless tire like Conti GP4000S2. Some are fast and weak (Pro one) others are tougher but it's a bit of a crapshoot.
-There is no standardised size for road 'tubeless ready', some tire rim combinations could be dangerously loose or need loads of tape, others impossibly too tight to mount.
-Many sealant manufacturers believe that sealants made for MTB automatically work for road, but they don't, Stans and dozens of other rebranded Stans (Schwalbe Blue etc) won't seal reliably above about 40psi. Only Orange Sealant and MAYBE a few others work reliably at higher pressures.
-If you are not very heavy and your roads are fairly clean you don't deseperately need road tubeless.
-Road tubeless isn't any lighter and often is heavier vs tube clincher.
-Some sealants aren't compatible with CO2.

I think road tubeless will be the future, but rims need to be sealed from the factory, sealants need to improve to be road specific and tire/rim sizes need to be standardised.

Exactly this

imafatman

Been running road tubeless for 18 months now. Absolutely love it. 7,000km with fast, lightweight road tyres and not once being stuck out on the road having to change tubes.

They are additional hassle to setup.... mounting them on the rims can be difficult. You have to keep your sealant topped up and crucially be running the right kind of sealant

Carry some of those tiny single serve super glue's in your saddlebag as you can use that to help seal bigger cuts. Use the right kind of sealant. (Orangeseal)

singleton

I ran road tubeless for 2 years and did about 9000km in that time through winter and summer.

They are more difficult to install/seat and take more maintenance than tube clinchers, but that's all known up front.
I did get one or two punctures and they eventually sealed - but took a while - maybe because of the sealant, maybe the cold and wet weather, maybe the high tyre pressure, maybe something else.

My biggest worry was having a catastrophic failure while out. If I got a puncture and the pressure dropped too low, the tyres would unseat from the rims and there was no way to reseat them without an airshot - so I carried a tube and pump. But, it was almost impossible to get the tyres off and get a tube in by the roadside as well as they were such a tight fit.

So, after 2 years of nagging doubt, I've gone back to clinchers and tubes.

drlodge

As Malcolm says, no need for inner tubes, carry a pump and tire worms. If a worm won't get you home then the tyre is in a really bad way and its time to call a taxi/international rescue.

Don't use CO2 with sealant.

Thigh_burn

imafatman wrote:

...You have to keep your sealant topped up...

Sorry for the pun, but what do you mean keeping it topped up? How do you do that?

singleton

Thigh_burn wrote:

Sorry for the pun, but what do you mean keeping it topped up? How do you do that?

It dries out and if you don't keep it topped up then there will be no sealant left to seal the holes.

zefs

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

Poppa Wheelie

zefs wrote:

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

This doesn't seem to be an issue with any other form of transport. Why is it different with bikes?

imafatman

Poppa Wheelie wrote:

This doesn't seem to be an issue with any other form of transport. Why is it different with bikes?

Because motor vehicle wheels are built to withstand high speeds and loads so they are very strong and heavy and 99% of tyres are mounted with hydraulic assisted tyre mounters. If you needed to mount a tyre manually you'd need a two ft tyre lever. It doesn't really matter if the tyre is to tight, it gets forced on and both the wheel and tyre are strong enough to deal with the tolerances.

Scale it down and it's another matter... Bike wheels and tyres have to be light as possible and so the tolerances for fit have to be much finer. If the tyre is actually too tight you could literally break a cycle rim if you tried to force it.

Cycle tyres have to be tight enough to be safe, at the same time need to be physically mountable without breaking the rim and also doable by hand. If it's too loose it's unsafe, if it's too tight it's a fucking nightmare and or impossible to mount.

Andymaxy

zefs wrote:

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

My mavic ust doesn't even come off the rim, so I don't carry anything puncture equipment. Knowing that I can't get the tire off the rim, why bother brings the tools, I just carry my phone to call for help. Honestly, the UST system is no where near how they are in the advertisement and the GCN video.

zefs

Andymaxy wrote:

zefs wrote:

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

My mavic ust doesn't even come off the rim, so I don't carry anything puncture equipment. Knowing that I can't get the tire off the rim, why bother brings the tools, I just carry my phone to call for help. Honestly, the UST system is no where near how they are in the advertisement and the GCN video.

It is for me, what combo are you using? I can remove and attach the Yksion UST and Hutchinson tires by hand on Ksyrium Elite UST wheels and when deflated the tires stay seated and they seal with just a floor pump. Galactik 11 storms costed 32£ each and that's their racing tires. In general the tubeless tire prices are high though, that is true.

Poppa Wheelie

It just goes to show what different experiences we are all having with tyres.

For me, the last pair of folding clincher tyres I ever used (Schwalbe One’s) were very difficult to fit. Every time I’d just about get the bead over the rim it would pop off somewhere else and as soon as I deflated the inner tube the tyre would come off the rim. Heaven knows what would have happened if I had a puncture.

However, on the same rims, Schwalbe Pro One tubeless fitted easily and once inflated using a Ghetto Airshot/coke bottle won’t come off the rim unless I use firm hand pressure. Therefore I can deflate the tyre to add sealant and re-inflate it without 'breaking' the bead. Or, I can deflate the tyre and remove it with just my bare hands if I ever need to fit an inner tube, which touch wood, I haven’t had to do in over 1000 miles.

For what it’s worth, Schwalbe Pro One tubeless cost £33.50 from here https://www.mantel.com/uk/schwalbe-pro-one-microskin-tl-easy-tyre

Camcycle1974

Thigh_burn wrote:

imafatman wrote:

...You have to keep your sealant topped up...

Sorry for the pun, but what do you mean keeping it topped up? How do you do that?

Simply that every few months you need to add some more sealant to the tyre via the removable valve core. It does dry out to an extent, meaning that any puncture you have might not seal.

cycleclinic

Kinlin/IRC is as good as mavic/Hutchinson for comparability.

Now you know why I supply IRC and Mavic use Hutchinson. In fact both tyres brands work equally well on both manufacturers rims but that's because kinlin use a standard that very close to UST.

Shimano and Hutchinson have been tubeless partners for years. IRC also reference Shimano rims when designing there tyres. All these manufacturers are essentially working to the same standard. So it complete tosh to suggest the tech is kit is not there yet. It is. Some manufacturers have some odd ideas like not putting the bump next to the well so the tyre unseats at zero pressure meaning swearing will happen.

Also I have some new things today which should help sealant seal bigger punctures. I have a tyre with a nadty cut that Caffe latex can't seal. If it can seal this bingo.

cycleclinic

I have started using the pin test. If the hole seals quickly your fine if it does not add sealant.

Andymaxy

zefs wrote:

Andymaxy wrote:

zefs wrote:

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

My mavic ust doesn't even come off the rim, so I don't carry anything puncture equipment. Knowing that I can't get the tire off the rim, why bother brings the tools, I just carry my phone to call for help. Honestly, the UST system is no where near how they are in the advertisement and the GCN video.

It is for me, what combo are you using? I can remove and attach the Yksion UST and Hutchinson tires by hand on Ksyrium Elite UST wheels and when deflated the tires stay seated and they seal with just a floor pump. Galactik 11 storms costed 32£ each and that's their racing tires. In general the tubeless tire prices are high though, that is true.

I have comete pro carbon, plus the ust tires that came with it. The edge of the tire felt like they were glued to the rim. Had to get two mechanics together plus a tire lever to help me get it off. The tire was really tight too, I couldn't install it by hand even after leaving it on my radiator. It does seal with a regular pump, but for me that's the only part that matches the advertisement.

zefs

Andymaxy wrote:

zefs wrote:

Andymaxy wrote:

zefs wrote:

Problem is with tires and rim combinations. Since no companies produce both products except Mavic/Hutchinson. That's why I recommend Mavic UST/Hutchinson combo which is tubeless done correctly.
Obviously some people have already invested on different wheels and don't want to change setups just to go tubeless I'd imagine.

My mavic ust doesn't even come off the rim, so I don't carry anything puncture equipment. Knowing that I can't get the tire off the rim, why bother brings the tools, I just carry my phone to call for help. Honestly, the UST system is no where near how they are in the advertisement and the GCN video.

It is for me, what combo are you using? I can remove and attach the Yksion UST and Hutchinson tires by hand on Ksyrium Elite UST wheels and when deflated the tires stay seated and they seal with just a floor pump. Galactik 11 storms costed 32£ each and that's their racing tires. In general the tubeless tire prices are high though, that is true.

I have comete pro carbon, plus the ust tires that came with it. The edge of the tire felt like they were glued to the rim. Had to get two mechanics together plus a tire lever to help me get it off. The tire was really tight too, I couldn't install it by hand even after leaving it on my radiator. It does seal with a regular pump, but for me that's the only part that matches the advertisement.

I guess it's only on the Comete wheels since they are 64mm deep, but on low profiles it does work as it should.