Aero vs light weight frame

flopstocks
flopstocks Posts: 110
edited June 2018 in Road buying advice
Hi after recently returning my Viner Mitus 0.6 due to frame issues. I have the option of picking a new frame as the Viner Mitus is not available in my size.

Not bigging my self up, but I now ride at a pretty good pace.

Completed Eden Classic 100k in 3.38 (16.2 mph avg)
Birmingham Velo 100m 5.33 (18.3 mph avg)
Wales Velothon 4.33 (19.2 mph avg)
I live in Cornwall where I generally average 17mph+ riding around here.

My old frame was lightweight (approx 1260g), I just don't know whether to go down the aero EC130 (approx 1796g), or the maxima (approx 1187g)

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRPXEC130/ ... d-frameset
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRVIMAX40/ ... d-frameset

I think living in hilly Cornwall makes the decision harder

Opinions would be greatly appreciated
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Comments

  • flopstocks wrote:

    Not bigging my self up, but I now ride at a pretty good pace.

    Completed Eden Classic 100k in 3.38 (16.2 mph avg)
    Birmingham Velo 100m 5.33 (18.3 mph avg)
    Wales Velothon 4.33 (19.2 mph avg)
    I live in Cornwall where I generally average 17mph+ riding around here.

    You sound quite competitive, have you done any proper bike rides/ races to better understand your capabilities?

    Aero would trump lightweight in TT's. Lightweight would trump aero on mountains
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • prhymeate
    prhymeate Posts: 793
    Can't comment from experience, but this video from Cycling Weekly might be of interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdscuvZmJ5g
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    Thanks for this, I think if I lived up Country Aero would be a no brainer. But living in hilly Cornwall makes the decision harder.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Viner Maxima every day of the week. An aero frame in Devon is a waste of time and I think they look naff anyway. Plus the viner looks awesome. There's one on here in the Your Road Bikes section somewhere.

    I suppose you can't get the cash back?
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    I have not enquired about getting the cash back. I had the Campy Chorus Viner Mitus, on special at just over £1000 this was a steal.

    I'm assuming they will fit my components to a new frame.
  • dannyjames1
    dannyjames1 Posts: 44
    Since you're on a Viner and loking at another viner I thought I should point out that I ride an RT-80 which is the same geometry. AFAIK the viner seems to be an RT-90, the SL version of the RT-80 (DengFu Carbon FM-066SL) frame. The difference between the two being the SL being about 80 grams lighter overall and exactly the same forks.

    It's a great frame, but you could save some cash and get the RT-80 Ultegra for £1100 which is a great bike. How much is 80 grams worth to you?

    Personally I'd go for aero over SL for my next bike. I'm now at a level of fitness where I would likely see in improvement in performance from aero frame/wheels, with flat rides averaging out at around 19.5-20mph and hilly ones at 18 slipping through the air easier seems to become even more paramount because of the resistance at that speed. From what I've seen aero will give you more of a benefit over SL even up a hill unless it's a really steep one maybe. Losing 1kg saves a couple of watts uphill and that's it, weight is bugger all really. If I had the option of changing my RT-80 to a Ec130 I would.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Kind of agree with dannyjames but the reality is for average joe that aero bikes don't really give you the gains and they look chad and aren't that versatile. Give me a s works tarmac over a venge or S5 any day of the week.

    Likewise the viner Maxima looks the dogs with deep wheels on if that's your thing.
  • noodleman
    noodleman Posts: 852
    Don't kid yourself. An aero frame at 19-20mph average will make no difference. Wheels will and clothing will, as will body position. An aero frame is probably the least cost effective way of increasing average speed.
    argon 18 e116 2013 Vision Metron 80
    Bianchi Oltre XR Sram Red E-tap, Fulcrum racing speed xlr
    De Rosa SK pininfarina disc
    S Works Tarmac e-tap 2017
    Rose pro sl disc
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    edited May 2018
    Yeah I was really happy with the Viner Mitus 0.6 fitted with 40mm Fulcrum quattro carbon clinchers. Just a shame the frame failed.

    For the price I think this bike is a steal

    https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXRT80S ... ve-edition
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Get the Maxima then. If you liked / loved it then go like with like, and the Maxima is a really really nice looking frame especially in the dark grey with red accents.

    I've only had non aero frames and been the fastest and slowest in my riding group in equal measure depending on the strength of headwind.

    With your 40mm wheels you have the versitility to do whatever you need.

    That said, if you really want to get one then you should definitely scratch the itch. Worst case scenario you can always sell it and go back to a non aero frame.
  • Probably way over what you are intending to splurge, but if you were torn between lightweight and aero, the Scott Addict is a stunning frame.

    Not in the slightest aero looking compared to the full-on framesets out there now, but subtle aero details had this score less drag than many other "full aero", in some test I saw a few years ago. Oh, and it is silly light and comfortable.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-ADDICT-TEAM-ISSUE-ROAD-BIKE-FRAME-ORICA-GREEN-EDGE-SIZES-52-54-56-58-NEW/183033551687?hash=item2a9da65b47:g:n1wAAOSwQiFaZ43~
  • stueys
    stueys Posts: 1,332
    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 3&t=149847

    If you buy the right bike, you can get lightweight and aero without going full on aero frame. See the tour test in the link above.
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    I am getting the frame replaced under warranty. Unfortunately they are dragging their heels on the replacement.

    They are unable to provide the Viner Mitus frame, so I think that I will end up with the Maxima.
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    Unfortunately the is a £400 upgrade fee for the Maxima, or the Ec130 is free. Why is nothing ever simple
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    I guess you have to ask yourself if you can afford the £400, and if so, is it worth it?

    Would you be kicking yourself if you hadn't gone for it, wishing you had?

    Plus the planet-x looks absolutely hideous, especially in that green.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Also it turns out the Viner Mitus is the same frame as the RT90 as far as I can tell. Do they still sell that one?
  • dannyjames1
    dannyjames1 Posts: 44
    Also it turns out the Viner Mitus is the same frame as the RT90 as far as I can tell. Do they still sell that one?

    Only the frameset now or a clearance one but only in XS size & ultegra. I was on the PX website earlier looking for ideas for my next bike.

    Might go to DHgate instead and get a Chinago c60 frame and build it up myself
  • norvernrob
    norvernrob Posts: 1,447
    Stueys wrote:
    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=149847

    If you buy the right bike, you can get lightweight and aero without going full on aero frame. See the tour test in the link above.

    You can go both, my Foil is 6.6kg all in including pedals, cages and Garmin Mount. It used to be under 6.3kg but I changed wheels.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Someone on here has recently bought one so ask for his recommendation.

    My view is by all means go for open mould Chinese frames but I'd avoid something branded up as a fake as I would imagine the quality control may not be as good, whereas many companies are rightly praised for selling open mould frames. Blatent "fakes" I'd try to avoid

    FYI the vitus is the FM066sl

    Have you also seen the addict team framesets on eBay? Crazy prices.
  • dannyjames1
    dannyjames1 Posts: 44
    Someone on here has recently bought one so ask for his recommendation.

    My view is by all means go for open mould Chinese frames but I'd avoid something branded up as a fake as I would imagine the quality control may not be as good, whereas many companies are rightly praised for selling open mould frames. Blatent "fakes" I'd try to avoid

    FYI the vitus is the FM066sl

    Have you also seen the addict team framesets on eBay? Crazy prices.

    yeah it's the one thing that puts me off, I can't even find out which factory produces them otherwise I'd consider it if I could do a bit more research into the quality. Some people give unbranded Chinese frames quite a bit of stick but they're not all bad, lots of great frames have came out of the hongfu & dengfu and other factories and are commonly sold rebranded by the likes of PX, Ribble, Merlin, Dolan and probably even lots of the mainstream bicycle brands without complaints. the fm066/sl is a good frame. I've been on some nasty roads with it over the last 2 years and no issues, no cracks, never had to do any work on the bottom bracket or headset, handles well enough. Basically everything a bike should do.
  • milemuncher1
    milemuncher1 Posts: 1,472
    80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.
  • 80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.

    Do you wear a skinsuit MM1?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.

    Do you wear a skinsuit MM1?

    He wears two. Double the miles, double the kit...
  • milemuncher1
    milemuncher1 Posts: 1,472
    80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.

    Do you wear a skinsuit MM1?

    I do tend to, if I’m on an ‘event’. I did at last Sunday’s Randonee. It was more of an experiment than anything else.
  • 80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.

    Do you wear a skinsuit MM1?

    I do tend to, if I’m on an ‘event’. I did at last Sunday’s Randonee. It was more of an experiment than anything else.

    Any improvement in cadence?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • Brakeless
    Brakeless Posts: 865
    80-85% if your effort is spent moving air out of the way. Aero trumps lightweight, as far as advantage of design goes, except if you’re solely doing Hill TTs.

    Do you wear a skinsuit MM1?

    I do tend to, if I’m on an ‘event’. I did at last Sunday’s Randonee. It was more of an experiment than anything else.

    Brilliant. A skinsuit and a handlebar bag on a Sportive. It gets better every post.
  • LeeDa
    LeeDa Posts: 82
    Assuming you don’t have a stable of bikes I’d go Viner, probably more an all rounder + aero frames look naff with low profile rims, at least to me. Not sure what wheels you have but might be something to consider.

    The PX frameset paint job is rather unrefined too. Heavy too!
  • izza
    izza Posts: 1,561
    Forget the aerodynamics of an aero frame - they are aimed at sprinters. So the BB area is normally stiffer and gives greater amount of lateral stiffness when out of the saddle. Like NorvenRob I have had a Foil and it was a great climbing bike for a big grinder like myself who spends half the time out of the saddle on an incline. If you are a skinny whippet that specialises at spinning whilst in the saddle then go for the lightweight frame.
  • flopstocks
    flopstocks Posts: 110
    I'm 13.5 stone so far from a whippet. I was perfectly happy with the Mitus 0.6 and would be happy on another or the RT90 but they don't have stock.

    Hopefully they will budge on the Maxima
  • bristolpete
    bristolpete Posts: 2,255
    izza wrote:
    Forget the aerodynamics of an aero frame - they are aimed at sprinters. So the BB area is normally stiffer and gives greater amount of lateral stiffness when out of the saddle. Like NorvenRob I have had a Foil and it was a great climbing bike for a big grinder like myself who spends half the time out of the saddle on an incline. If you are a skinny whippet that specialises at spinning whilst in the saddle then go for the lightweight frame.

    I second this. I have a TCR and a Propel - they ride very differently. TCR needs cadence, Propel needs power / torque. Both great bikes though.