Alfie Evans

dinyull

This will probably go don like a fart in a lift.

As a fairly new father, I can't begin to imagine the pain that his parents have been and are going through. But, surely there comes a time where you have to accept what is best for your child.

Since having a ventilator removed both parents have had to resuscitate him - doesn't this tell them what they need to know?

And the abuse the Dr's and Nurses have received as well as the disruption cause to the hospital is an absolute disgrace.

haydenm

Agreed, it's amazing how many people are willing to accept that the hospital are deliberately trying to let a healthy kid die. I don't think people realise quite how much brain damage he has already, even if he did pull through. Horrible situation

My GF is the most compassionate person I know and was in tears last night about them keeping him alive when he's in pain, I'll take her lead

fenix

It's an awful situation - but hassling the hospital that's treating many other just as sick children helps nobody.
If your pet is in pain you know you have to let it go - heartbreaking though it is. People would be up in arms if you kept a puppy in agony.

crispybug2

There was a thread about Charlie Gard which followed what I feel will be a similar line to this one

As already stated earlier I simply cannot envisage what the parents of Alfie are going through, nor would I ever want to!

This being said however it appears to my, admittedly uninformed mind, that they are taking this situation beyond what should be allowed in the interests of the child, as already stated having to revive him after life support was withdrawn seems to me to be an inability to accept the inevitable. I don’t know how true this is, but there was a report that Alfie’s father was trying to get a manslaughter charge against his doctors. If true then down that road lies madness!

The other aspect that disturbs me is the rent-a-mob that attaches itself to cases like these, they were despicable in the Charlie Gard case but they seem to have ratcheted it up a couple of notches in Alfie’s case, they really do need to f*ck off and leave the parents be!

robert88

Agree with the OP totally.

Sadly I think there are people out there who use these situations to stir up trouble.

lettingthedaysgoby

It’s a desperately tragic situation that has been highjacked for their own twisted agenda by an awful group of religious nut jobs.

drlodge

lettingthedaysgoby wrote:

It’s a desperately tragic situation that has been highjacked for their own twisted agenda by an awful group of religious nut jobs.

Couldn't agree more. Saw this article this morning, quite reprehensible that they're doing this. Let the poor blighter die, please.

http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/25/alfie-eva ... r-7497380/

dinyull

I would suggest the time the parents spend talking to the media, on facebook live or in court would be better spent at Alfie's side, spending precious time with him they won't get back.

I understand as a parent you'll do anything to help your kids, but as time has gone on in this case my views towards his parents has dropped.

slowbike

Our little one is nearly 3 - so only a little older than Alfie - as I understand it, Alfie has been in hospital for 14 months in a vegetative state - I couldn't imagine that at all - having seen LSB running around like a madman and develop all that time.
I have had to take LSB to hospital - it's a horrible experience, but you have to remain calm and strong - and listen to what the doctors tell you. In our case it was straight forward, so no need to challenge the advice given. But I can understand if you get told that there's nothing they can do for your child, you'll want to challenge that as far as possible.

But you still have to be sensible & pragmatic - prolonging a life for a few more months but subject them to pain & suffering - are they suffering? Or is it just delaying the inevitable pain and suffering for the family? Is there any hope for a meaningful life? Doctors aren't there deciding "nah, can't be arsed to do any more for this child" - they'll hate losing every patient they can't heal.

As much as I feel for the babies whose life is cut terribly short - if there is no cure or chance of recovery, surely it's better for them to die naturally and as pain free as possible, rather than just draw out the process.

As a consultant said on BBC breakfast yesterday - these life/death decisions are happening in hospitals up and down the country - it's just the extreme cases that become public.

lettingthedaysgoby

oxoman wrote:

As a parent you will do anything to help your kids get better. Sadly some countries have better advanced medical facilities than our own and it sometimes means finances and politics get involved. Nurses and doctors ideally want the same as the parents but become held back by the above. Hassling parents and medical staff is wrong.

This case is absolutely nothing to do with “better advanced medical facilities” being available, or the politics and finances of the NHS.

lakesluddite

Agree. Whilst I have sympathy for the pain the parents are going through, I have no sympathy for this so called 'Alfie's Army' who are intimidating and harassing the health care professionals concerned in this case, along with fellow patients and visitors according to reports. The parents should disassociate themselves from this baying mob - and while they are at it, drop any plans for a private prosecution for attempted murder which I have recently heard. That's just a good way to lose any public sympathy you have left.

slowmart

One ex US congresscnut has already used this situation to justify owning an AR 15 assault weapon. Yes really.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... th-dignity

I can't understand the parents persistence nor thinking which not only goes against the best medical advice in the country but also the abuse and threats against the medical staff there. It's a Children's hospital, with NHS salaries where people have a vocation and desire to help others. That to me is unforgivable.

Rigga

The fu*kwits outside the hospital need to get a life (and probably a job) and go away. Abusing the hospital staff is disgusting and outrageous.

tangled_metal

FFS, Scousers comment is offensive and a sign of the poster's ignorant nature.

I've been trying not to read up on this case after the last case of parents being desperate to keep their severely brain damaged kid alive really bothered me. The first link about it was the metro one above. First thing I saw was a picture of the kid. I regret opening the link because I now have a face to the story.

I have discussed the matter generally with a work colleague. It's a frustrating matter trying to get through to people who get their news from Facebook. Stories about disgusting and mouldy wards and the child being given a lethal injection. Now I was at the old Alder Hey and it had issues but it was clean and no mould. I cannot see how the new Alder Hey is neither. Lethal injection? How ridiculous does that sound?

Sorry but this whole story is one of exploitation and denial IMHO. Parents in denial and a bunch of people attaching themselves to the parents for some kind of ulterior motives. And the pope has got involved? It's just desperately sad for the family but that tragedy is made a hundred times worse by the leeches giving them false hope (my opinion based on past stories like this) and who are outside protesting. Renta-religious mob if you ask me. Then there's the horrendous people threatening the healthcare professionals.

There is only negatives with this whole mess of a situation.

Pross

Having been in a position of having a seriously ill child (now fortunately fully recovered) your reasoning goes out of the door and you rely on medical staff to take emotion out of the decision and make the best choices even though those are big decisions. It's very difficult to be rational and other than a few rogue medics acting alone medical staff will always want a solution that is best for their patient. Of all these high profile cases I'm struggling to think of one where the parents have won and there must be a reason for that.

nickice

Poor little boy. It's hard to get your head round the 'best interests of the child' being to let him die but I'm not suggesting any malevolence on the part of the hospital. I know if it was my son I'd want him to stay alive as long as possible even if it were hopeless.

drlodge

nickice wrote:

I know if it was my son I'd want him to stay alive as long as possible even if it were hopeless.

What about the amount of suffering he endures...really? Would you want to keep your son alive even if he were in a lot of pain and suffering?

Life has a value, but quality of life has a value too.

nickice

drlodge wrote:

nickice wrote:

I know if it was my son I'd want him to stay alive as long as possible even if it were hopeless.

What about the amount of suffering he endures...really? Would you want to keep your son alive even if he were in a lot of pain and suffering?

Life has a value, but quality of life has a value too.

I didn't say it would be rational (and I don't know if the child is in visible pain) but I think a lot of parents would agree (I don't know if you are one). The problem I have with the 'quality of life' argument is that it could be a bit of a slippery slopr.

drlodge

I am a parent, and I don't believe in extending life at any cost. If there is no hope and there is pain and suffering then there comes a time to accept that and accept its in the child's best interest for their life to end.

I'd take the same position with my life...I don't want to suffer and have no quality of life, better to end it.

slowbike

drlodge wrote:

I am a parent, and I don't believe in extending life at any cost. If there is no hope and there is pain and suffering then there comes a time to accept that and accept its in the child's best interest for their life to end.

I'd take the same position with my life...I don't want to suffer and have no quality of life, better to end it.

Totally agree.
It's a point that has no right answer - for me, unconscious & vegetative state != quality of life. But there's the question of whether the situation may improve. If the answer is no, then (IMHO) it's best to withdraw life-prolonging treatment. Restrict to nourishment & pain relief only.

I just hope that I never have to make that choice for my little one.

florerider

drlodge wrote:

I am a parent, and I don't believe in extending life at any cost. If there is no hope and there is pain and suffering then there comes a time to accept that and accept its in the child's best interest for their life to end.

I'd take the same position with my life...I don't want to suffer and have no quality of life, better to end it.

But being asked for resuscitate or do not resuscitate instructions for my son was devastating. It is difficult to be rational in those moments.

He came through, with everlasting thanks to some great medics.

i feel for the staff at Alder Hay.

nickice

florerider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I am a parent, and I don't believe in extending life at any cost. If there is no hope and there is pain and suffering then there comes a time to accept that and accept its in the child's best interest for their life to end.

I'd take the same position with my life...I don't want to suffer and have no quality of life, better to end it.

But being asked for resuscitate or do not resuscitate instructions for my son was devastating. It is difficult to be rational in those moments.

He came through, with everlasting thanks to some great medics.

i feel for the staff at Alder Hay.

I'm happy your son pulled through. As you say, we don't know how we'd react in these situations.

secretsam

oxoman wrote:

Sadly some countries have better advanced medical facilities than our own and it sometimes means finances and politics get involved.

Sorry, that's plain inaccurate. Alder Hey is world class, no hospital on earth could save the poor child. All the others were offering was to prolong life.

A tragic case of lies/religion (same thing to me) getting in the way of a tragic reality.

Source of info: helped plan Alder Hey, have worked with several other children's units in UK and abroad

secretsam

Slowbike wrote:

I just hope that I never have to make that choice for my little one.

Absolutely. I can't imagine the pain.

robert88

The subject of this thread has now departed.

DeVlaeminck

Poor soul. I'm not going to criticise the parents, if a hospital anywhere said they would provide treatment I can understand them wanting to try even if it's not something the Drs thought medically justified.

orraloon

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Poor soul. I'm not going to criticise the parents, if a hospital anywhere said they would provide treatment I can understand them wanting to try even if it's not something the Drs thought medically justified.

Understandable. But. In the previous Charlie Gard case, the therapy promised by a medic in the US turned out to be theoretical, not tested on mice let alone humans. So, correctly, the courts acted in the best interest of the child and refused. Sometimes the reality is it's better to let the person die. (Written as a parent and a grandparent.)

RIP little fella.

rjsterry

Pretty disturbing stuff.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ans-battle

Seems pretty clear that this case and that of Charlie Gard and Isaiah Haastrup are largely the result of these vultures hijacking the parents' distress to push their warped ideas.

Pross

False hope is the cruellest thing anyone can offer parents in these circumstances, especially false hope given by people to suit their own agenda.

tangled_metal

My concern is the way these cases can damage reputations of hospitals and medical staff. Alder Hey is one of the best specialist, tertiary hospitals specialising in treating children. Just like GOSH, it's world class. However the vultures that offered hope where there wasn't have set up conditions such that unfair criticism of Alder Hey becomes accepted widely. Will this damage be serious and last I doubt it but it's unfair.

BTW we spent a few weeks there with our child but in the old hospital. There was issues with it that related to its age (cock roaches coming out of wards into the main corridor). But others were down to nurses having a lazy night shift sat on their behinds eating cake and drinking tea while patients were waiting an hour for their medicines. Doctors there we dealt with and who dealt with other patients were really the best that we've had dealings with. A big step up from our local secondary hospital doctors.

The new Alder Hey is infinitely better. They were building it while we were here. I saw the plans, very impressive. The McDonald's building where family members of sick children can stay close to the hospital was amazing. One parent can sleep in a bed next to their child but the other can use that McDonald's building if there's space. It's part of the whole Alder Hey package I saw as top class.

BTW as sad as this and similar cases get, in some ways it's a relief the child's suffering ends. RIP.

tailwindhome

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/sta ... 0908792834